Sinusitis FAQ

want to avoid surgery

Question:

On 21 Dec 2003 18:50:31 -0800, turbina…@hotmail.com (turbinates) wrote: >If they are "SPECIALISTs" with so many "YEARS" of experience and we >have to seek one after the other for an appropiate answer, there is >definite something not right. >Instead of trying to understand the problem, educating and advising >the patients on a proper course of action, they tend to ‘RECRUIT’ >patients for surgery. "You can have the surgery next week, someone >just canceled that appointment". >And most of them are like that…what is your chance of bumping into a >good one if there is only one bad one in your town… >Both you and I are probably doing a better job than many ENTs out >there…but it should not be that way.

You are correct. But I suspect that the real truth is that all of the Science of Medicine is full of trial and error and variation and success and failure and different skill levels and varying schools of surgical techniques.  So you have to do your own research if you can. Another example is the proper remedy for hyperthroidism.   In North America, they ablate the thyroid (i.e. destroy it) which then implies a lifetime of supplemental thyroxine since you are then hypothyroid.  In Europe, they use antithyroid drugs. medicine on an ongoing basis instead – an arguably much more conservative approach. Two completetly different approaches with radically different effects on the patients’ life.  Do you think they tell the patient about the different schools and give hm or her a choice?  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Don Brady <dbr…@pobox.com> wrote in message <news:vnrcuvkbfrcje7js3i8jso0u116f1dm3el@4ax.com>… > On 21 Dec 2003 18:50:31 -0800, turbina…@hotmail.com (turbinates) wrote: > >If they are "SPECIALISTs" with so many "YEARS" of experience and we > >have to seek one after the other for an appropiate answer, there is > >definite something not right. > >Instead of trying to understand the problem, educating and advising > >the patients on a proper course of action, they tend to ‘RECRUIT’ > >patients for surgery. "You can have the surgery next week, someone > >just canceled that appointment". > >And most of them are like that…what is your chance of bumping into a > >good one if there is only one bad one in your town… > >Both you and I are probably doing a better job than many ENTs out > >there…but it should not be that way. > You are correct. > But I suspect that the real truth is that all of the Science of Medicine is > full of trial and error and variation and success and failure and different > skill levels and varying schools of surgical techniques.  So you have to do > your own research if you can.

Greed is also in the truth. On one hand we have the lawyers exploiting the mistakes of the medical profession, and on the other hand we have an incompetent profession which is trying very hard to protect (by limiting the number of practioners) and to maximise its income (surgery is the most efficient way of making money). There is simply no time to think about the patient, to work out the best possible treatment for the patient, they can’t remember or care who is who. More mistakes are being made as they have to work longer and longer hour to pay for skyrocketting insurance premium. Successful medicine needs only ‘dedication and care’. The current litigation climax in north america and is spreading to australia, is arising from the fact that there is a disctinct lack of ‘dedication and care’ the patients feel grossly mislead, lied and ignored from their once trusted doctors. > Another example is the proper remedy for hyperthroidism.   In North America, > they ablate the thyroid (i.e. destroy it) which then implies a lifetime of > supplemental thyroxine since you are then hypothyroid.

The docs are being also pressured by the surgical equipment companies, drug companies, private hospitals etc etc to prescibe the treatment that are benifical to those companies. >  In Europe, they use antithyroid drugs. medicine on an ongoing basis instead – > an arguably much more conservative approach. > Two completetly different approaches with radically different effects on the > patients’ life.  Do you think they tell the patient about the different schools > and give hm or her a choice?

It costs time and energy to offer a choice and if the patient is put on conservative treatment, the specialist could lose that patient. What would a businessman do? If you over feed the fish in the tank, they tend to slock the surplus, the stocked food will be rotton and become poisonous to the water… Don, I wish you a merry Chrismas. Take care.

Response:

I was just advised to have surgery (and he’s got a spot open next week!) because of deviated septum, sleep apnea and areas of pus on CT scan.  I know a number of people who’ve had sinus surgery who developed problems again two years down the road.  It seems like such an invasive procedure with a not-too-hot success rate. Has anyone had success removing areas of infection using irrigation techniques?  I’ve been using a neti pot for years, but I imagine that just reaches nasal cavities.  Just tried Can Do’s method this evening, but the liquid just seemed to run out.  Would one of the water-pik devices reach my trouble areas successfully?  Help!

Response:

What type of position did you take when trying my procedure? Did you kneel on the floor and put the top of your head down so that your face is facing your body, and your nostrils were facing up? Did you get any foam? Did it burn at all? Did you stay down for a few minutes? When you lifted your head, did any liquid pour out or your nose? A lot of the peroxide/baking soda liquid would flow out of my nose during the technique, especially when my sinuses were swollen and closed. But, enough of the liquid would seep deep into my sinus cavities, where it could attack diseased mucus, diseased junk and infected membranes. The entire purpose of the "upside down" flooding is to get the great anti-infective mix of peroxide and baking soda into the sinus cavities where it can go to war against what is in the sinuses. I am sad to hear that my technique didn’t help you. Let me know if you have any questions. Regards, CanDo. "Janine Maves" <jma…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:2MMEb.5548$wL6.2463@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was just advised to have surgery (and he’s got a spot open next week!) > because of deviated septum, sleep apnea and areas of pus on CT scan.  I know > a number of people who’ve had sinus surgery who developed problems again two > years down the road.  It seems like such an invasive procedure with a > not-too-hot success rate. > Has anyone had success removing areas of infection using irrigation > techniques?  I’ve been using a neti pot for years, but I imagine that just > reaches nasal cavities.  Just tried Can Do’s method this evening, but the > liquid just seemed to run out.  Would one of the water-pik devices reach my > trouble areas successfully?  Help!

Response:

hi, sleepanemia I dont know about. I have a deviated septum. large polips, ect. They want to operate. First get a secound or third opinion. Dont tell any of them you seen a ENT. Then see what they say. Im sure you had a cat scan. Correct? I am not having the sergery. Maybe in the future if they get there shit together and have a practical one. My ENT did not give me the options I wanted to hear. He said if he had to get at the polips that fess would not than he had to cut into my inner lip and take the rest out  that way., among other things.  He made it sound like it is no big deal but did not really answer my concerns.  It is a big deal . It is a operation. Then he said I have to use a nasal spray (rhinocort, flonase ect the rest of my life. At this time i will just do what Im doing. The more I think of it the more I think what a f—– idiot this doctor was. Along with a lot of Fast paced idiot doctors out there. Do I sound ticked off? I am… Doctors need to get it together. This doctor just pushed me in and out. F— em. Sorry for being blunt. But please get 1-2 more opinions. Thank you.

Response:

"Can do" <rasm1…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:9XNEb.805$Ol1.561@bignews3.bellsouth.net… > What type of position did you take when trying my procedure? Did you kneel > on the floor and put the top of your head down so that your face is facing > your body, and your nostrils were facing up?

Yes, but in this position I didn’t seem to get any liquid into me.  I had better luck tucking in my chin and tilting my head so that the crown on my head was on the shower floor, but it’s pretty hard to hold that position for any length of time > Did you get any foam? Did it burn at all? Did you stay down for a few > minutes? When you lifted your head, did any liquid pour out or your nose?

I did stay down for a few minutes, but didn’t get a lot of foaminess and the liquid that drained out was pretty clear, which is why I wondered if I was only getting at the same areas I reach with the neti pot every day.  I have felt kind of congested ever since, which I notice some others reported after using your method, so maybe this is the start of opening up some new areas. I’ll give it another try tomorrow. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A lot of the peroxide/baking soda liquid would flow out of my nose during > the technique, especially when my sinuses were swollen and closed. But, > enough of the liquid would seep deep into my sinus cavities, where it could > attack diseased mucus, diseased junk and infected membranes. > The entire purpose of the "upside down" flooding is to get the great > anti-infective mix of peroxide and baking soda into the sinus cavities where > it can go to war against what is in the sinuses. > I am sad to hear that my technique didn’t help you. Let me know if you have > any questions. > Regards, CanDo. > "Janine Maves" <jma…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:2MMEb.5548$wL6.2463@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > I was just advised to have surgery (and he’s got a spot open next week!) > > because of deviated septum, sleep apnea and areas of pus on CT scan.  I > know > > a number of people who’ve had sinus surgery who developed problems again > two > > years down the road.  It seems like such an invasive procedure with a > > not-too-hot success rate. > > Has anyone had success removing areas of infection using irrigation > > techniques?  I’ve been using a neti pot for years, but I imagine that just > > reaches nasal cavities.  Just tried Can Do’s method this evening, but the > > liquid just seemed to run out.  Would one of the water-pik devices reach > my > > trouble areas successfully?  Help!

Response:

"Flushface" <questor…@aol.com> wrote in message > I wish I never had any type of surgery. The doctor did exactly what > you said and now I am miserable, worse off, and have to flush > everyday. I cannot escape from the constant thought of how he ruined > my life. Don’t get surgery.

what kind of surgery did you have done?  what problems are you having now as a result? — —– Ruth Berry Signature Images http://www.berryimages.com 1 Corinthians 2:5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Response:

Don Brady <dbr…@pobox.com> wrote in message <news:66vbuvg4h5huj53cdu0t6s2svtitc7k1pn@4ax.com>… > Yes the trick is for each person to decide when surgery is needed and when it > is not, and also who to have do it. > When they have done enough research, and seen enough specialists, that they > *know* (not guess or assume or take someone else’s word) the answer to this > question, then the decision is clear.

If they are "SPECIALISTs" with so many "YEARS" of experience and we have to seek one after the other for an appropiate answer, there is definite something not right. Instead of trying to understand the problem, educating and advising the patients on a proper course of action, they tend to ‘RECRUIT’ patients for surgery. "You can have the surgery next week, someone just canceled that appointment". And most of them are like that…what is your chance of bumping into a good one if there is only one bad one in your town… Both you and I are probably doing a better job than many ENTs out there…but it should not be that way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Until then, they are not ready for surgery. > Incidentallly, surgery has helped me a lot and I think I would never have been > able to clear the worst aspects of my sinusitis without it.    But it took me > literally over 10 years to finally decide on surgery, and I had it done by one > of the very top sinus surgeons in the country.

Response:

turbinates wrote: > Most doctor would say their success rate are around 80-90 %, so your > statistic of 70% seems to be closer to the truth.

I believe 70% was the result of a study done by the Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit some years ago.  It involved follow-up studies to see how the patients did over the next months and years. Doctors who say their success rate is 90% may not have followed up with their patients to see if they relapsed a year or so later. > Do you know what > happen to the other 30%?

Minor improvement, or no improvement, or (in a few cases) patient gets worse, or (in a very few cases) major complications. > is there (or will there be) any study from > the docs about this faiure rate, whether the poor patients end up > worse off or the same?

The Henry Ford Hospital study probably did keep statistics on the patients who didn’t get cured, but I don’t remember what those were. > I ‘ve been wondering for the last few years about the rate which peope > were recommeded surgery but did not take it up and somehow have become > cured after ward with conservative treatment, i.e the needless surgery > rate. This rate will probably never be looked at.

Why not? — Steven L.

Response:

Yes the trick is for each person to decide when surgery is needed and when it is not, and also who to have do it. When they have done enough research, and seen enough specialists, that they *know* (not guess or assume or take someone else’s word) the answer to this question, then the decision is clear. Until then, they are not ready for surgery. Incidentallly, surgery has helped me a lot and I think I would never have been able to clear the worst aspects of my sinusitis without it.    But it took me literally over 10 years to finally decide on surgery, and I had it done by one of the very top sinus surgeons in the country.

Response:

Steven Litvintchouk <sdlit…@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message <news:iWkFb.3412$IM3.817@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>… > turbinates wrote: > > Most doctor would say their success rate are around 80-90 %, so your > > statistic of 70% seems to be closer to the truth. > I believe 70% was the result of a study done by the Henry Ford Hospital > in Detroit some years ago.  It involved follow-up studies to see how the > patients did over the next months and years. > Doctors who say their success rate is 90% may not have followed up with > their patients to see if they relapsed a year or so later.

This is outright lazy (not to follow up) and misleading (inaccurate stat), and is a criminal offence to delibrately give out false data to the patients. The risk is being reduced and benefit is beeing beefed up to woo patients into taking unneccasry procedures. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Do you know what > > happen to the other 30%? > Minor improvement, or no improvement, or (in a few cases) patient gets > worse, or (in a very few cases) major complications. > > is there (or will there be) any study from > > the docs about this faiure rate, whether the poor patients end up > > worse off or the same? > The Henry Ford Hospital study probably did keep statistics on the > patients who didn’t get cured, but I don’t remember what those were. > > I ‘ve been wondering for the last few years about the rate which peope > > were recommeded surgery but did not take it up and somehow have become > > cured after ward with conservative treatment, i.e the needless surgery > > rate. This rate will probably never be looked at. > Why not?

Firstly, the patient would not come back, pay a hefty sum to the doctor to tell him/her that "Doctor, I have become better without surgery…" Secondly, doc won’t spend the time to collect such data, and then tell theirs patients that "I have recommdended 10 people for surgerry, 3 did not take it and somehow have become better with cando ’s H2O2 upside down irrigation etc and ect" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — Steven L.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jimmy14…@webtv.net (Jim Jam) wrote in message <news:2361-3FE3B657-135@storefull-2214.public.lawson.webtv.net>… > hi, sleepanemia I dont know about. I have a deviated septum. large > polips, ect. They want to operate. First get a secound or third opinion. > Dont tell any of them you seen a ENT. Then see what they say. Im sure > you had a cat scan. Correct? I am not having the sergery. Maybe in the > future if they get there shit together and have a practical one. My ENT > did not give me the options I wanted to hear. He said if he had to get > at the polips that fess would not than he had to cut into my inner lip > and take the rest out  that way., > among other things.  He made it sound like it is no big deal but did not > really answer my concerns.  It is a big deal . It is a operation. Then > he said I have to use a nasal spray (rhinocort, flonase ect the rest of > my life. At this time i will just do what Im doing. The more I think of > it the more I think what a f—– idiot this doctor was. Along with a > lot of Fast paced idiot doctors out there. Do I sound ticked off? I > am… Doctors need to get it together. This doctor just pushed me in and > out. F— em. Sorry for being blunt. But please get 1-2 more opinions. > Thank you.

I have done considerable research and pondering on the same subject and I have had the exact feelings,however you have to ask yourself,how miserable am I and is the risk of surgery worth the possible benifits?I have had 2 surgeries in the past 6 months and had alot of polyps removed so I speak from my own experience. Usually sinus surgery is a means to relieve symptoms the key word being symptoms.In my case I feel I had to have surgery because my polyps were not going to magically dissappear.My ENT said to me "I have done over 300 surgeries of this type and never had anyone say they were sorry the had it done". As far as the lifetime of nose spay,it is preventative maintenance for polyp patiants.By taking the spray you are using one of only a few medical methods that has been proven to help prevent the reoccurance of polyps—no garantees. Bottom line is sinus disease is more often than not a uncurable process and the doctor is there to help you with your symptoms.I have come to grips with the fact that I will have sinus problems for the rest of my life,but I am going to do everything I can to maintain the best possible quality of life that I can. This is all based on my own situation and how I have perceived it.      Russ

Response:

Janine Maves wrote: > I was just advised to have surgery (and he’s got a spot open next week!) > because of deviated septum, sleep apnea and areas of pus on CT scan.  I know > a number of people who’ve had sinus surgery who developed problems again two > years down the road.  It seems like such an invasive procedure with a > not-too-hot success rate. > Has anyone had success removing areas of infection using irrigation > techniques?  I’ve been using a neti pot for years, but I imagine that just > reaches nasal cavities.  Just tried Can Do’s method this evening, but the > liquid just seemed to run out.  Would one of the water-pik devices reach my > trouble areas successfully?

The problem is that as part of the inflammation process of sinusitis, the openings (ducts, ostia) to the sinus cavities can swell shut completely, in which case no method of irrigation will reach in there. Having a deviated septum makes that even more likely. You might ask your doctor for a short course of prednisone tablets which might open up all the sinuses long enough for irrigation to work. (Steroid nasal sprays may not reach into every sinus cavity.) Failing that, and I assume antibiotics haven’t worked for you either, then surgery may be your only option.  It has a success rate of around 70%.  But get a second opinion!  I’m very suspicious of a doctor who tries to get you into surgery in just one week, because s/he knows it may take time to get a second opinion. — Steven L.

Response:

I wish I never had any type of surgery. The doctor did exactly what you said and now I am miserable, worse off, and have to flush everyday. I cannot escape from the constant thought of how he ruined my life. Don’t get surgery. Start eating right,don’t smoke and take care of your nose by keeping well hydrated and even flushing with a mild noniodized salt,baking soda and distilled or purified water mixture occasionally when you have been doing something that has exposed you to a lot of allergens or dust or germs or etc.. GOOD LUCK and IF you still insist on surgery GET several opinions and make them describe every procedure and method of doing it!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steven Litvintchouk <sdlit…@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message <news:DT0Fb.2460$IM3.2282@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>… > Janine Maves wrote: > > I was just advised to have surgery (and he’s got a spot open next week!) > > because of deviated septum, sleep apnea and areas of pus on CT scan.  I know > > a number of people who’ve had sinus surgery who developed problems again two > > years down the road.  It seems like such an invasive procedure with a > > not-too-hot success rate. > > Has anyone had success removing areas of infection using irrigation > > techniques?  I’ve been using a neti pot for years, but I imagine that just > > reaches nasal cavities.  Just tried Can Do’s method this evening, but the > > liquid just seemed to run out.  Would one of the water-pik devices reach my > > trouble areas successfully? > The problem is that as part of the inflammation process of sinusitis, > the openings (ducts, ostia) to the sinus cavities can swell shut > completely, in which case no method of irrigation will reach in there. > Having a deviated septum makes that even more likely. > You might ask your doctor for a short course of prednisone tablets which > might open up all the sinuses long enough for irrigation to work. > (Steroid nasal sprays may not reach into every sinus cavity.) > Failing that, and I assume antibiotics haven’t worked for you either, > then surgery may be your only option.  It has a success rate of around > 70%.  But get a second opinion!  I’m very suspicious of a doctor who > tries to get you into surgery in just one week, because s/he knows it > may take time to get a second opinion. > — Steven L.

Most doctor would say their success rate are around 80-90 %, so your statistic of 70% seems to be closer to the truth. Do you know what happen to the other 30%? is there (or will there be) any study from the docs about this faiure rate, whether the poor patients end up worse off or the same? I ‘ve been wondering for the last few years about the rate which peope were recommeded surgery but did not take it up and somehow have become cured after ward with conservative treatment, i.e the needless surgery rate. This rate will probably never be looked at. Kind regards.

Response:

===> "Janine Maves", you said: "Yes, but in this position I didn’t seem to get any liquid into me.  I had better luck tucking in my chin and tilting my head so that the crown on my head was on the shower floor, but it’s pretty hard to hold that position for any length of time " <=== Sorry to hear that your sinuses were not successfully flooded with peroxide and baking soda. If you can’t get the anti-infective liquid to seep deep within the sinuses cavities, it won’t be able to destroy the infections within the sinus cavities. I have no idea why anyone’s "upside down" nose won’t hold fluids, but then I am not a doctor nor a scientist, and have no idea of your own individual system. Are you sure that you put the top, of your head, flat on the floor of the shower, while kneeling on both knees? In other words, your head would have been almost upside down. Regardless, I wish you the best of luck, and hope that everything turns out great for you! Have a happy and healthy Xmas and New Year! CanDo.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jimmy14…@webtv.net (Jim Jam) wrote in message <news:2361-3FE3B657-135@storefull-2214.public.lawson.webtv.net>… > hi, sleepanemia I dont know about. I have a deviated septum. large > polips, ect. They want to operate. First get a secound or third opinion. > Dont tell any of them you seen a ENT. Then see what they say. Im sure > you had a cat scan. Correct? I am not having the sergery. Maybe in the > future if they get there shit together and have a practical one. My ENT > did not give me the options I wanted to hear. He said if he had to get > at the polips that fess would not than he had to cut into my inner lip > and take the rest out  that way., > among other things.  He made it sound like it is no big deal but did not > really answer my concerns.  It is a big deal . It is a operation. Then > he said I have to use a nasal spray (rhinocort, flonase ect the rest of > my life. At this time i will just do what Im doing. The more I think of > it the more I think what a f—– idiot this doctor was. Along with a > lot of Fast paced idiot doctors out there. Do I sound ticked off? I > am… Doctors need to get it together. This doctor just pushed me in and > out. F— em. Sorry for being blunt. But please get 1-2 more opinions. > Thank you.

Many doctors are urging patients into elective surgeries without much though about the patients at all. They are trying to maximise their efficiencies (in generating incomes) by communicating as little as possible (to avoid questions =time saved)  I am truly DISGUSTED at the "it-can’t fail" impression before surgery and and the lies that they would give when things go wrong post-surgery.

Response:

Filed under: Sinusitis Treatment

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