Filed under: Pathophysiology
Question:
Autoimmunity a pathogenic factor in HIV-1-related anemia WESTPORT, Jan 03 (Reuters Health) – Circulating autoantibodies to endogenous erythropoietin (EPO) are associated with HIV-1-related anemia, AIDS researchers report in a Concise Communication in the Journal of Infectious Diseases for December.
Gack. What does this mean in terms of Procrit/Epogen therapy?? Among 204 unselected consecutive subjects infected with HIV-1, 48 (23.5%) had circulating autoantibodies to endogenous EPO, Dr Theodore Kordossis of the University of Athens, Greece, and associates from Greece and the United States report.
snipped remainder for bandwidth.
Response:
Autoimmunity a pathogenic factor in HIV-1-related anemia WESTPORT, Jan 03 (Reuters Health) – Circulating autoantibodies to endogenous erythropoietin (EPO) are associated with HIV-1-related anemia, AIDS researchers report in a Concise Communication in the Journal of Infectious Diseases for December. Among 204 unselected consecutive subjects infected with HIV-1, 48 (23.5%) had circulating autoantibodies to endogenous EPO, Dr Theodore Kordossis of the University of Athens, Greece, and associates from Greece and the United States report. "Circulating anti-EPO antibodies were an independent predictor of anemia [odds ratio: 5.0], as strong as other known causes of anemia," according to the team. The association between anemia and circulating autoantibodies to endogenous EPO was even stronger, with an odds ratio of 10.4, when the investigators limited their analysis to patients with unexplained anemia. While these retrospective results do not provide "…direct evidence that autoantibodies against EPO have a detrimental effect on erythropoiesis in HIV patients….the strength of the association and its independence from other predictors suggests that an etiologic role is possible," Dr Kordossis and colleagues say. Anti-EPO was associated with higher EPO levels. The researchers theorize that the appearance of autoantibodies might represent a response to increased EPO levels in the immunocompromised host. "In this case, autoantibodies might be an indirect marker rather than a pathogenetic factor of the anemia." On the other hand, "…a high EPO level with a failure to carry out its biologic action may be caused by a neutralizing effect of anti-EPO autoantibodies," they write. Dr Kordossis and colleagues hope a longitudinal cohort study now underway will provide more definitive answers to these questions. J Infect Dis 1999;180:2044-2047. The Journal of Infectious Diseases 1999;180:2044-2047
Question:
>>While I don’t yet have as much information as I’d like on dosing
cimetidine/tagamet, 2-4 milligrams per kg of body weight seems reasonable. << Ed, Wow… ya got me with this one? Where did this start? Tagamet? as in the stomach acid reducer that I took for 15 years for ulcers, acid reduction, reflux and IBS? The histamine H
Question:
Thanks Ed. I think stress is an important link in ths, and other, diseases. What about meditation to reduce the stress? Or any other stress reduction strategies you care to name? The body is good at healing itself, given the opportunity. Maybe if the stress load can be diminished, myelin can heal and the BBB be restored to a state of integrity. What do you think? Carmel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ed hill wrote: > hi folks > i’ve been emailed several times for explanations of > the articles i’ve posted. not everyone has the time or > inclination to bone up on this stuff. so my apologies to > those who don’t need my commentary. i’m also > posting these because i believe they may be helpful. > i’m an informed layman, not a professional researcher > or doctor. so have a grain of salt handy here. > i haven’t tried this myself, but will be taking some > starting today. i’ll letcha’ know what’s up with that if > anything. > the following studies point to a possible mechanism > at play in the connection between stress and BBB > permiability. while the connections between stress > and increased disease activity is documented, i don’t > know of much documentation of the mechanism by > which the increased symptoms many of us experience > during or shortly after stressful events occurs. > as many of you know, permiability and subsaquent > leaking of the blood brain barrier is thought by many > researchers to allow harmful leukocytes to cross into > our central nervous systems(CNS) from our > bloodstreams. once inside the CNS those leukocytes > are thought to attack our myelin, leading to lesions > and loss of function. > i think this is an oversimplification. but do agree that > this may be part of the reason for the correlation > between stress and our episodic exacerbations. > the articles also document a possible means of > protecting ourselves from these effects with a readily > available over the counter drug, cimetidine. > cimetidine is available by perscription and both as > tagamet and as a generic without perscription. the > newer "second generation" antihistamines (yup. > tagamet’s actually an H2 antagonistic antihistamine) > are ineffective as they are made of a larger or in some > cases lipophilic molecules that don’t get into the CNS > as readily. > cimetidine successfully competes with histines that > normally occupy H2 receptors in our CNS during > stress. it’s shown that this interferes with the process > by which the blood brain barrier is made "leaky" or > more permiable. > cinetidines effect on serotonin level is interesting as > well, but i’m not going to get into that without more > info. it’s definitely implicated in stress/BBB > permiability though. > happy reading > ed > ……….. > [FR_1436498] TITLE: Histamine modulates heat > stress-induced changes in blood-brain barrier > permeability, cerebral blood flow, brain oedema and > serotonin levels: an experimental study in conscious > young rats. > AUTHORS: Sharma HS; Nyberg F; Cervos-Navarro > J; Dey PK > AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of > Neuropathology, Free University Berlin, F.R.G. > SOURCE: Neuroscience 1992 Sep;50(2):445-54 > CITATION IDS: PMID: 1436498 UI: 93063873 > ABSTRACT: > The possibility that endogenous > histamine plays an important role in modulating the > pathophysiology of heat stress was examined in young > rats using a pharmacological approach. Subjection of > young animals (six to seven weeks old) to heat stress > at 38 degrees C for 4 h in a biological oxygen demand > incubator (relative humidity 47-50%, wind velocity > 20-25 cm/s) resulted in a profound increase in > blood-brain barrier permeability to Evans Blue > albumin (whole brain 375%) and [131I]sodium > (whole brain 478%) along with a significant > reduction in the cerebral blood flow (mean 34%). > The water content of the whole brain was elevated by > 4.5% (about 19% volume swelling) from the control. > At this time-period, the plasma and whole brain 5- > hydroxytryptamine levels were elevated by 656% and > 328%, respectively, from the control group. > Pretreatment with cimetidine (a histamine H2 > receptor antagonist) significantly thwarted the > increases in the brain water content and the > blood-brain barrier permeability. In cimetidine- > pretreated animals, the cerebral blood flow was > significantly elevated and the plasma and brain > 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) levels were slightly > but significantly reduced as compared with the > untreated stressed group. However, prior treatment > with mepyramine (a histamine H1 receptor > antagonist) neither attenuated the changes in water > content and the blood-brain barrier permeability nor > altered the cerebral blood flow and > 5-hydroxytryptamine levels. In fact, there was a > significantly higher permeation of the tracers across > the cerebral vessels in these drug-treated animals > along with a greater accumulation of the brain water > content as compared with the untreated stressed > group. The cerebral blood flow and > 5-hydroxytryptamine levels showed only minor > changes from the untreated stressed group. These > results show, probably for the first time, that (i) the > endogenous histamine plays an important role in the > pathophysiology of heat stress, and (ii) this effect > appears to be mediated via specific histamine H2 > receptors. > MAIN MESH HEADINGS: Blood-Brain > Barrier/*physiology Brain/*physiology Brain > Edema/*physiopathology Cimetidine/*pharmacology > Histamine/*physiology Pyrilamine/*pharmacology > Serotonin/*metabolism > ADDITIONAL MESH Animal > HEADINGS: Blood-Brain Barrier/drug effects > Brain/blood supply Brain/drug effects Heat Male > Organ Specificity Rats Rats, Wistar Regional Blood > Flow/drug effects Serotonin/blood > Stress/physiopathology Support, Non-U.S. Gov’t > PUBLICATION TYPES: JOURNAL ARTICLE > [FR_1611469] > TITLE: Effect of histamine and antagonists > on electrical > resistance across the blood-brain > barrier in rat > brain-surface microvessels. > AUTHORS: Butt AM; Jones HC > AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Biomedical Sciences > Division, King’s College, > London, U.K. > SOURCE: Brain Res 1992 Jan > 8;569(1):100-5 > CITATION IDS: PMID: 1611469 UI: 92305861 > ABSTRACT: > The effect of histamine on blood-brain barrier > permeability was investigated using in situ > measurement of transendothelial electrical > resistance in brain-surface microvessels of > anaesthetized rats. Mean resistance of vessels > superfused with artificial cerebrospinal fluid > was 1500 omega.cm2, indicating a tight barrier > with low ion permeability. The addition of 10(-4) > M histamine resulted in a 75% decrease in > resistance, in both arterial and venous vessels, > indicating a marked increase in barrier > permeability. To determine the nature of the > response to histamine, rats were given > presurgical intraperitoneal injections of > promethazine (H1 receptor antagonist), cimetidine > (H2 receptor antagonist) or indomethacin > (cyclo-oxygenase inhibitor), singularly and in > combinations. Cimetidine completely blocked the > histamine-mediated increase in barrier > permeability whereas promethazine only had a > small effect and indomethacin was ineffective. In > addition, cimetidine treatment resulted in a 100% > increase in basal resistance in both arterial and > venous vessels, suggesting endogenous histamine > was acting to increase blood-brain barrier > permeability. It is concluded that histamine > causes an increase in blood-brain barrier > permeability which is mediated via endothelial H2 > receptors, and that the electrical resistance in > cimetidine-treated rats most closely represents > the true permeability of the blood-brain barrier. > MAIN MESH HEADINGS: Blood-Brain > Barrier/*physiology > Cimetidine/*pharmacology > Endothelium, Vascular/*physiology > Histamine/*pharmacology > Microcirculation/*physiology > Promethazine/*pharmacology > ADDITIONAL MESH Animal > PUBLICATION TYPES: JOURNAL ARTICLE > CAS REGISTRY NUMBERS:51-45-6 (Histamine) > 51481-61-9 (Cimetidine) > 53-86-1 (Indomethacin) > 60-87-7 (Promethazine) > — > ———————————————————————– > "The whole business of his life was in the plunder of his gaze…" > Daniel Halevy on Degas > | <include>ed’s 3d stuff | http://world.std.com/~ehill | 617-629-4625 |
– " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel. Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." www.cyberwizards.com.au/~carmel www.cyberwizards.com.au/~jaragun
Response:
hi carmel CPD <car…@cyberwizards.com.au> writes: >Thanks Ed. I think stress is an important link in ths, and other, >diseases.
yup, but because of the autoimmune t-cells being freed to get at the CNS by a leaky blood brain barrier, we are particularly subject to harm. >What about meditation to reduce the stress? Or any other >stress reduction strategies you care to name?
why not?! but along with that i’ll do the tagamet/cimetidine for backup protection. it’s pretty clear from the studies below that it works really well. i’m doing 200mg three times a day. >The body is good at >healing itself, given the opportunity. Maybe if the stress load can be >diminished, myelin can heal and the BBB be restored to a state of >integrity. What do you think?
be great if that’s all it took. but i see MS as a fight. and i firmly believe ya should throw the furniture if you have to. i’ll use anything and everything to increase my odds of retaining function. cimetidine, an antihistamine also known as tagamet, appears to be a very powerful means of strengthening the BBB. it actually eliminated the weakening of the BBB caused by stress entirely in the studies. (see below) it’s cheap, available and has few side effects other than possible drowsiness. so what’s not to like 
ya, stress reduction is a must for us. but i’ll take some insurance too!!! if that helps us heal then great! ed >Carmel >ed hill wrote: >> hi folks
<big snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> happy reading >> ed >> ……….. >> [FR_1436498] TITLE: Histamine modulates heat >> stress-induced changes in blood-brain barrier >> permeability, cerebral blood flow, brain oedema and >> serotonin levels: an experimental study in conscious >> young rats. >> AUTHORS: Sharma HS; Nyberg F; Cervos-Navarro >> J; Dey PK >> AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of >> Neuropathology, Free University Berlin, F.R.G. >> SOURCE: Neuroscience 1992 Sep;50(2):445-54 >> CITATION IDS: PMID: 1436498 UI: 93063873 >> ABSTRACT: >> The possibility that endogenous >> histamine plays an important role in modulating the >> pathophysiology of heat stress was examined in young >> rats using a pharmacological approach. Subjection of >> young animals (six to seven weeks old) to heat stress >> at 38 degrees C for 4 h in a biological oxygen demand >> incubator (relative humidity 47-50%, wind velocity >> 20-25 cm/s) resulted in a profound increase in >> blood-brain barrier permeability to Evans Blue >> albumin (whole brain 375%) and [131I]sodium >> (whole brain 478%) along with a significant >> reduction in the cerebral blood flow (mean 34%). >> The water content of the whole brain was elevated by >> 4.5% (about 19% volume swelling) from the control. >> At this time-period, the plasma and whole brain 5- >> hydroxytryptamine levels were elevated by 656% and >> 328%, respectively, from the control group. >> Pretreatment with cimetidine (a histamine H2 >> receptor antagonist) significantly thwarted the >> increases in the brain water content and the >> blood-brain barrier permeability. In cimetidine- >> pretreated animals, the cerebral blood flow was >> significantly elevated and the plasma and brain >> 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) levels were slightly >> but significantly reduced as compared with the >> untreated stressed group. However, prior treatment >> with mepyramine (a histamine H1 receptor >> antagonist) neither attenuated the changes in water >> content and the blood-brain barrier permeability nor >> altered the cerebral blood flow and >> 5-hydroxytryptamine levels. In fact, there was a >> significantly higher permeation of the tracers across >> the cerebral vessels in these drug-treated animals >> along with a greater accumulation of the brain water >> content as compared with the untreated stressed >> group. The cerebral blood flow and >> 5-hydroxytryptamine levels showed only minor >> changes from the untreated stressed group. These >> results show, probably for the first time, that (i) the >> endogenous histamine plays an important role in the >> pathophysiology of heat stress, and (ii) this effect >> appears to be mediated via specific histamine H2 >> receptors. >> MAIN MESH HEADINGS: Blood-Brain >> Barrier/*physiology Brain/*physiology Brain >> Edema/*physiopathology Cimetidine/*pharmacology >> Histamine/*physiology Pyrilamine/*pharmacology >> Serotonin/*metabolism >> ADDITIONAL MESH Animal >> HEADINGS: Blood-Brain Barrier/drug effects >> Brain/blood supply Brain/drug effects Heat Male >> Organ Specificity Rats Rats, Wistar Regional Blood >> Flow/drug effects Serotonin/blood >> Stress/physiopathology Support, Non-U.S. Gov’t >> PUBLICATION TYPES: JOURNAL ARTICLE >> [FR_1611469] >> TITLE: Effect of histamine and antagonists >> on electrical >> resistance across the blood-brain >> barrier in rat >> brain-surface microvessels. >> AUTHORS: Butt AM; Jones HC >> AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Biomedical Sciences >> Division, King’s College, >> London, U.K. >> SOURCE: Brain Res 1992 Jan >> 8;569(1):100-5 >> CITATION IDS: PMID: 1611469 UI: 92305861 >> ABSTRACT: >> The effect of histamine on blood-brain barrier >> permeability was investigated using in situ >> measurement of transendothelial electrical >> resistance in brain-surface microvessels of >> anaesthetized rats. Mean resistance of vessels >> superfused with artificial cerebrospinal fluid >> was 1500 omega.cm2, indicating a tight barrier >> with low ion permeability. The addition of 10(-4) >> M histamine resulted in a 75% decrease in >> resistance, in both arterial and venous vessels, >> indicating a marked increase in barrier >> permeability. To determine the nature of the >> response to histamine, rats were given >> presurgical intraperitoneal injections of >> promethazine (H1 receptor antagonist), cimetidine >> (H2 receptor antagonist) or indomethacin >> (cyclo-oxygenase inhibitor), singularly and in >> combinations. Cimetidine completely blocked the >> histamine-mediated increase in barrier >> permeability whereas promethazine only had a >> small effect and indomethacin was ineffective. In >> addition, cimetidine treatment resulted in a 100% >> increase in basal resistance in both arterial and >> venous vessels, suggesting endogenous histamine >> was acting to increase blood-brain barrier >> permeability. It is concluded that histamine >> causes an increase in blood-brain barrier >> permeability which is mediated via endothelial H2 >> receptors, and that the electrical resistance in >> cimetidine-treated rats most closely represents >> the true permeability of the blood-brain barrier. >> MAIN MESH HEADINGS: Blood-Brain >> Barrier/*physiology >> Cimetidine/*pharmacology >> Endothelium, Vascular/*physiology >> Histamine/*pharmacology >> Microcirculation/*physiology >> Promethazine/*pharmacology >> ADDITIONAL MESH Animal >> PUBLICATION TYPES: JOURNAL ARTICLE >> CAS REGISTRY NUMBERS:51-45-6 (Histamine) >> 51481-61-9 (Cimetidine) >> 53-86-1 (Indomethacin) >> 60-87-7 (Promethazine) >> — >> ———————————————————————– >> "The whole business of his life was in the plunder of his gaze…" >> Daniel Halevy on Degas >> | <include>ed’s 3d stuff | http://world.std.com/~ehill | 617-629-4625 | >– >" Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel. > Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." >www.cyberwizards.com.au/~carmel >www.cyberwizards.com.au/~jaragun
– ———————————————————————– "The whole business of his life was in the plunder of his gaze…" Daniel Halevy on Degas | <include>ed’s 3d stuff | http://world.std.com/~ehill | 617-629-4625 |
Response:
hi folks i’ve been emailed several times for explanations of the articles i’ve posted. not everyone has the time or inclination to bone up on this stuff. so my apologies to those who don’t need my commentary. i’m also posting these because i believe they may be helpful. i’m an informed layman, not a professional researcher or doctor. so have a grain of salt handy here. i haven’t tried this myself, but will be taking some starting today. i’ll letcha’ know what’s up with that if anything. the following studies point to a possible mechanism at play in the connection between stress and BBB permiability. while the connections between stress and increased disease activity is documented, i don’t know of much documentation of the mechanism by which the increased symptoms many of us experience during or shortly after stressful events occurs. as many of you know, permiability and subsaquent leaking of the blood brain barrier is thought by many researchers to allow harmful leukocytes to cross into our central nervous systems(CNS) from our bloodstreams. once inside the CNS those leukocytes are thought to attack our myelin, leading to lesions and loss of function. i think this is an oversimplification. but do agree that this may be part of the reason for the correlation between stress and our episodic exacerbations. the articles also document a possible means of protecting ourselves from these effects with a readily available over the counter drug, cimetidine. cimetidine is available by perscription and both as tagamet and as a generic without perscription. the newer "second generation" antihistamines (yup. tagamet’s actually an H2 antagonistic antihistamine) are ineffective as they are made of a larger or in some cases lipophilic molecules that don’t get into the CNS as readily. cimetidine successfully competes with histines that normally occupy H2 receptors in our CNS during stress. it’s shown that this interferes with the process by which the blood brain barrier is made "leaky" or more permiable. cinetidines effect on serotonin level is interesting as well, but i’m not going to get into that without more info. it’s definitely implicated in stress/BBB permiability though. happy reading ed ……….. [FR_1436498] TITLE: Histamine modulates heat stress-induced changes in blood-brain barrier permeability, cerebral blood flow, brain oedema and serotonin levels: an experimental study in conscious young rats. AUTHORS: Sharma HS; Nyberg F; Cervos-Navarro J; Dey PK AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Neuropathology, Free University Berlin, F.R.G. SOURCE: Neuroscience 1992 Sep;50(2):445-54 CITATION IDS: PMID: 1436498 UI: 93063873 ABSTRACT: The possibility that endogenous histamine plays an important role in modulating the pathophysiology of heat stress was examined in young rats using a pharmacological approach. Subjection of young animals (six to seven weeks old) to heat stress at 38 degrees C for 4 h in a biological oxygen demand incubator (relative humidity 47-50%, wind velocity 20-25 cm/s) resulted in a profound increase in blood-brain barrier permeability to Evans Blue albumin (whole brain 375%) and [131I]sodium (whole brain 478%) along with a significant reduction in the cerebral blood flow (mean 34%). The water content of the whole brain was elevated by 4.5% (about 19% volume swelling) from the control. At this time-period, the plasma and whole brain 5- hydroxytryptamine levels were elevated by 656% and 328%, respectively, from the control group. Pretreatment with cimetidine (a histamine H2 receptor antagonist) significantly thwarted the increases in the brain water content and the blood-brain barrier permeability. In cimetidine- pretreated animals, the cerebral blood flow was significantly elevated and the plasma and brain 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) levels were slightly but significantly reduced as compared with the untreated stressed group. However, prior treatment with mepyramine (a histamine H1 receptor antagonist) neither attenuated the changes in water content and the blood-brain barrier permeability nor altered the cerebral blood flow and 5-hydroxytryptamine levels. In fact, there was a significantly higher permeation of the tracers across the cerebral vessels in these drug-treated animals along with a greater accumulation of the brain water content as compared with the untreated stressed group. The cerebral blood flow and 5-hydroxytryptamine levels showed only minor changes from the untreated stressed group. These results show, probably for the first time, that (i) the endogenous histamine plays an important role in the pathophysiology of heat stress, and (ii) this effect appears to be mediated via specific histamine H2 receptors. MAIN MESH HEADINGS: Blood-Brain Barrier/*physiology Brain/*physiology Brain Edema/*physiopathology Cimetidine/*pharmacology Histamine/*physiology Pyrilamine/*pharmacology Serotonin/*metabolism ADDITIONAL MESH Animal HEADINGS: Blood-Brain Barrier/drug effects Brain/blood supply Brain/drug effects Heat Male Organ Specificity Rats Rats, Wistar Regional Blood Flow/drug effects Serotonin/blood Stress/physiopathology Support, Non-U.S. Gov’t PUBLICATION TYPES: JOURNAL ARTICLE [FR_1611469] TITLE: Effect of histamine and antagonists on electrical resistance across the blood-brain barrier in rat brain-surface microvessels. AUTHORS: Butt AM; Jones HC AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Biomedical Sciences Division, King’s College, London, U.K. SOURCE: Brain Res 1992 Jan 8;569(1):100-5 CITATION IDS: PMID: 1611469 UI: 92305861 ABSTRACT: The effect of histamine on blood-brain barrier permeability was investigated using in situ measurement of transendothelial electrical resistance in brain-surface microvessels of anaesthetized rats. Mean resistance of vessels superfused with artificial cerebrospinal fluid was 1500 omega.cm2, indicating a tight barrier with low ion permeability. The addition of 10(-4) M histamine resulted in a 75% decrease in resistance, in both arterial and venous vessels, indicating a marked increase in barrier permeability. To determine the nature of the response to histamine, rats were given presurgical intraperitoneal injections of promethazine (H1 receptor antagonist), cimetidine (H2 receptor antagonist) or indomethacin (cyclo-oxygenase inhibitor), singularly and in combinations. Cimetidine completely blocked the histamine-mediated increase in barrier permeability whereas promethazine only had a small effect and indomethacin was ineffective. In addition, cimetidine treatment resulted in a 100% increase in basal resistance in both arterial and venous vessels, suggesting endogenous histamine was acting to increase blood-brain barrier permeability. It is concluded that histamine causes an increase in blood-brain barrier permeability which is mediated via endothelial H2 receptors, and that the electrical resistance in cimetidine-treated rats most closely represents the true permeability of the blood-brain barrier. MAIN MESH HEADINGS: Blood-Brain Barrier/*physiology Cimetidine/*pharmacology Endothelium, Vascular/*physiology Histamine/*pharmacology Microcirculation/*physiology Promethazine/*pharmacology ADDITIONAL MESH Animal PUBLICATION TYPES: JOURNAL ARTICLE CAS REGISTRY NUMBERS:51-45-6 (Histamine) 51481-61-9 (Cimetidine) 53-86-1 (Indomethacin) 60-87-7 (Promethazine) — ———————————————————————– "The whole business of his life was in the plunder of his gaze…" Daniel Halevy on Degas | <include>ed’s 3d stuff | http://world.std.com/~ehill | 617-629-4625 |
Response:
Question:
My wife and I would like to extend our thanks to the many sufferers who responded to our request to E-Mail Oprah in hopes of attracting her attention to the plight of IBS. Let’s keep it on track and hopefully more of us will add their E-Mail message and as Connie suggested, enlisting the aid of our representatives in congress could go a long way to drawing interest and perhaps intensive research into a subject dear to all of us. Thank you.
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Hi Bill: I think your idea is great, and would like to add that each person also needs to write to their congressman. Nothing counts like votes from your constituents. Besides writing to Oprah, as you suggest, I am going to write to my congressman in great detail as to how the medical community "steals" our money for multiple visits only to tell us its in our heads, take fiber or in my case, I even had one GI laugh at me. He told me I had some terrible personal problem and until I came to grips with what it was, I would never find a cure. One GI who is head of the hospital here said I had a "floating rib" and prescribed muscle relaxors. What a scam, seeing highly skilled and highly paid doctors. Well, anyway, that’s my 2 cents. Thanks Connie bill2 <willi…@cchat.com> wrote in message
news:7nij20$280c$1@news.gate.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have just sent Oprah an E-Mail on her Web site (Oprah.com) asking > her to take up the cause for a cure to IBS. I told her about my wife > and her daily pain. She is a Senior Citizen now and no, it doesn’t > get better – just worse and worse. The pain medication no longer does > the job and she can’t survive on oatmeal and baby food. Would you > please join in and alert Oprah to the plight of so many of us. Maybe > she can bring IBS to the forefront and start the Medical profession > into taking it seriously. Thank you – remember, it’s > www.oprah.com/email-oprah.html Thanks Bill
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On 26 Jul 1999 21:42:13 GMT, fivft…@aol.com (FIVFT2cm) wrote: >Bill..I have had ibs for 7 years and I just emailed oprah to do a show on >it…What a good idea!! She might call us and have her on her show (ha ha) >Christy
Great idea, too bad I cant stand her
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Just for info to AOL users there is a Keyword OPRAH (press Ctrl+K to bring up the keyword screen) Kay
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If you want to support an organization that is working to find a cure for IBS and other functional bowel disorders contact: www.iffgd.org ********************************************************* Blessed is he who has learned to laugh at himself, for he shall never ceased to be entertained —John Powell kmot…@aol.com
Response:
The following is the email I sent to Oprah: On a message board I participate on, it was mentioned that people are emailing you to support people in searching for a cure for IBS. I have the following comments to make about why I think it is very important for people suffering from this disease to have a very visible spokesperson, and why I think that you in particular would be a good choice for that. IBS (irritible bowel syndrome) is a disorder that affects 10-20% of people in the United States during their lifetime (some people for their entire lifetime. Based on a couple years experience talking to people with IBS on the internet, most people feel that they are the only ones suffering from this disorder, and the relief people feel when they find out they are not alone, is tremendous. The Medical community, as a whole, is not in anyway shape or form up to date on current treatment options for this disorder. I have talked to so many people who have been told by there doctor that there isn’t a treatment, and that they just have to live with it, it would break your heart. In a 1994 paper, yes that is a 1994 paper, a five year old paper, that most of the medical community appears to be totally unaware, treatment that could help 89% of people with IBS was reported: Title Antidepressant therapy in 138 patients with irritable bowel syndrome: a five-year clinical experience. Author Clouse RE; Lustman PJ; Geisman RA; Alpers DH Aliment Pharmacol Ther, 8(4):409-16 1994 Aug Doctor’s are unaware of just how devistating this illness can be for people. What follows is the paper information and abstract for a 1997 paper in a journal that is designed to provide continuing education for doctors: Title The irritable bowel syndrome. Author Francis CY; Whorwell PJ Source Postgrad Med J, 73(855):1-7 1997 Jan Abstract Irritable bowel syndrome is a common disorder varying in severity from trivial to incapacitating. The pathophysiology and epidemiology are gradually being unravelled and it is now becoming apparent just how poor the quality of life of some of these patients can be. It is no longer acceptable practice to diagnose the condition and discharge the patient on a high fibre diet, particularly as the latter can often make the situation worse. Although hard to treat, worthwhile responses can be achieved by careful targeting of therapy to the many different facets of the disorder. Also, Glaxo just put in for approval of the first drug, that’s right the first drug ever, that is targeted at this disorder. If all goes well, this drug will be released on the market within the next year, and if the medical community responds they way they have been to IBS, lots of people who could be getting relief from this drug will not be finding out about it from their doctors, so we need to be getting this information out to the public. Empowering the sufferers of IBS with knowledge about treatment, and reassurance that they are suffering from something that is real, and that they are not alone will, in my humble opinion, go along way to changing how the medical community responds to sufferers of IBS. Because of your desire to empower people in their lives, I feel that you would be a wonder person to bring this topic to the people, and empower the sufferers to seek adequate treatment, and be the one’s who lead the doctors to a modern understanding of this disorder. See www.iffgd.org to contact an organization dedicated to helping people who suffer from IBS and other functional gastrointestinal disorders. Thank you for your attention. Kathleen Mottus, Ph.D. ********************************************************* Blessed is he who has learned to laugh at himself, for he shall never ceased to be entertained —John Powell kmot…@aol.com
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I have just sent Oprah an E-Mail on her Web site (Oprah.com) asking her to take up the cause for a cure to IBS. I told her about my wife and her daily pain. She is a Senior Citizen now and no, it doesn’t get better – just worse and worse. The pain medication no longer does the job and she can’t survive on oatmeal and baby food. Would you please join in and alert Oprah to the plight of so many of us. Maybe she can bring IBS to the forefront and start the Medical profession into taking it seriously. Thank you – remember, it’s www.oprah.com/email-oprah.html Thanks Bill
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Bill..I have had ibs for 7 years and I just emailed oprah to do a show on it…What a good idea!! She might call us and have her on her show (ha ha) Christy
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There was a "e-mail Oprah" campaign on another IBS board last winter. I sent my input to her website along with many other people. Still waiting for something to happen via her tv show….
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Question:
There are several overweight women in an office at work, and they brag that they are losing weight and feeling fine taking Phentramine (not sure of spelling) & Prozac. Others tell me that this is a dangerous combination. Can anyone shed some light on this subject. Is this truly dangerous. Apparently they happened to be on Prozac for depression caused by their overweight condition, and have added the Phentramine for its weight loss characteristic’s. Would doctors describe this if it was dangerous? Jazzmnn
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are several overweight women in an office at work, and they brag that they are losing weight and feeling fine taking Phentramine (not sure of spelling) & Prozac. Others tell me that this is a dangerous combination. Can anyone shed some light on this subject. Is this truly dangerous. Apparently they happened to be on Prozac for depression caused by their overweight condition, and have added the Phentramine for its weight loss characteristic’s. Would doctors describe this if it was dangerous? Jazzmnn
Any ideas on this one group????
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There are several overweight women in an office at work, and they brag that they are losing weight and feeling fine taking Phentramine (not sure of spelling) & Prozac. Others tell me that this is a dangerous combination. Can anyone shed some light on this subject. Is this truly dangerous. Apparently they happened to be on Prozac for depression caused by their overweight condition, and have added the Phentramine for its weight loss characteristic’s. Would doctors describe this if it was dangerous? Jazzmnn
I see potential for this one being a bad combo for a lot of people, if prescribed indiscriminately. Prozac, alone, has side effects which can include psychosis. Add a strong stimulant to the mix and someone with latent emotional problems can probably be adversely affected. There are doctors who may prescribe the combination, believing it may be helpful, and for some, it may work. Phentermine, alone, is a good appetite suppressant. I don’t think prescribing Prozac, in combination with it, for someone who is not clinically depressed, is advisable. Like Phen/Fen, which the Phen/Pro has replaced, the combined actions have yet to be fully documented and studied, so anyone consuming the combo is a guina pig and should understand this and not be amazed if they get sick, like some of the victims of Phen/Fen who are now disabled. Buyer beware. That’s my opinion, anyway, on this popular diet fad. Ariel
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Like Phen/Fen, which the Phen/Pro has replaced, Phen/Pro did not ‘replace" phen/fen. Nothing did.
Yes, that’s probably an unfortunate choice of words I used, although for the first six months following the banishment of fenfluramine, as you mentioned, a bunch of ads and diet clinics advertised Phen/Pro. THe combination of Phen/Pro was touted as a ‘replacement’ by a large national weight-loss chain, the same chain that refused to share data with the FDA.
Maybe that’s where it got it’s momentum as "replacement" for Phen/Fen, I just remember feeling frustrated when people all around me started gobbling Prozac and other stimulants in combination for weight loss. It became very popular last year, so that "chain" did a good job promoting it. Fen/Pro is not endorsed by any organization. It has not been tested in the combination for weight loss.
I wouldn’t think so. It definately has not been studied in bariatric cases. That’s what I found alarming. so anyone consuming the combo is a guina pig and should understand this and not be amazed if they get sick, True like some of the victims of Phen/Fen who are now disabled. How many? I think if you look thru the literature you will find the ‘findings" or ‘complications’ of phen/fen (namely heart valve vegitations) has not really been as common or as devistating as the media would make us think. Certainly there are some individual cases that are tragic, but overall there is a modicum of hype involved.
Oh you are absolutely right, although, as you’ve said, there were some compelling case studies on the pathophysiology of the patients with the acute pulmonary hypertension scenarios. I never saw any clinically affected or harmed people who came to our facility, but we did 80% more echos and PFTs in the months following the scare. What was alarming was that it demonstrated how huge the consumer base was for Fen/Phen in the first place. I remember feeling that there was more than a modicum of hype at the time and started to become irritated at the mentality surrounding the sensational tabloid coverage of fenfluramine’s harmful consequences vs. any other bariatric condition. It does not preclude the possibility that they would have not gotten the same conditions without taking any drugs. Especially with the so-called mitral valve controversy. 1/3 of women have mild to moderate prolapse and have had mild non-threatening murmers. Add obesity and lifestyle to the mix, and who’s to say what caused what? We actually had to laugh at our increase in Echocardiographs requested by patients, themselves, without physician approval, and when they were prescribed and the women came in, they were frantic and concerned that this drug caused "heart damage" when they had been carrying around twice their pump’s burden in weight alone, many of them smoked cigarettes, and were frequently on more chemicals in combination in the form of drugs for every complaint imaginable. I hate to sound mean-spirited, and I have also been in need of a few shed pounds once or twice in my life, but, it was ludicrous when you consider the lawsuits that emerged from people suing the drug company for harming them, when they treated their own bodies like trash bags anyway. Buyer beware. That’s my opinion, anyway, on this popular diet fad. So true.
You and I see eye to eye on this, probably. There’s no easy fix, especially for obesity, one of the most prevalent problems in the US today. You have to take care of your body and drugs can only assist, but always carry risks of side-effects. People need to assume personal responsibility for their own health and wellness and if they jump on these bandwagons with fad drugs, then they need to be alert to the possibilities of getting sick from these "cures." Ariel
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Like Phen/Fen, which the Phen/Pro has replaced,
Phen/Pro did not ‘replace" phen/fen. Nothing did. THe combination of Phen/Pro was touted as a ‘replacement’ by a large national weight-loss chain, the same chain that refused to share data with the FDA. Fen/Pro is not endorsed by any organization. It has not been tested in the combination for weight loss. so anyone consuming the combo is a guina pig and should understand this and not be amazed if they get sick,
True. like some of the victims of Phen/Fen who are now disabled.
How many? I think if you look thru the literature you will find the ‘findings" or ‘complications’ of phen/fen (namely heart valve vegitations) has not really been as common or as devistating as the media would make us think. Certainly there are some individual cases that are tragic, but overall there is a modicum of hype involved. Buyer beware. That’s my opinion, anyway, on this popular diet fad.
So true. — Edward J. Mathes, RPA-C Physician Assistant Internal Medicine Opinions above are mine and mine alone. Opinions above are NOT medical advice. If you don’t like these opinions, make up some of your own. My spelling, syntax, denotation and grammar are perfect. It is my typing that is bad. Get Paid to Surf the Web: http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=ARG-758
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I posted these revelations in late 1996/early 1997. Having wasted a decade on reverse-engineering unproven theories and false treatment claims, the same cast of pharmaceutical characters remains in control today, pretending to be shocked by their failures of the past wasted decade. At the conclusion of this post, I list the outrageous conflicts of interest of these "movers and shakers" of HIV "research". fred Latest guidelines for antiretroviral therapy by the International AIDS Society-USA published in the 7/10/96 issue of JAMA. Charles C.J. Carpenter and Donna M. Jacobson were the only authors that did not receive gratuities from pharmaceutical and/or biotechnical companies. Carpenter CCJ, Fischl MA, Hammer SM, Hirsch MS, Jacobsen DM, Katzenstein DA, Montaner JSF, Richman DD, Saag MS, Schooley RT, Thompson MA, Vella S, Yeni PG, Volberding PA; for the International AIDS Society-USA. Antiretroviral therapy for HIV infection in 1996: Recommendations of an international panel. JAMA, Jul 10, 276(2):146-154. Objective.–To provide clinical recommendations for antiretroviral therapy for human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) disease with currently (mid 1996) available drugs. When to start therapy, what to start with, when to change, and what to change to were addressed. Participants.–A 13-member panel representing international expertise in antiretroviral research and HIV patient care was selected by the International AIDS Society-USA. Evidence.–Available clinical and basic science date, including phase 3 controlled trials, clinical endpoint data, virologic and immunologic endpoint data, interim analyses, studies of HIV pathophysiology, and expert opinions of panel members were considered. Recommendations were limited to drugs available in mid 1996. Process.–For each question posed, 1 or more member(s) reviewed and presented available data. Recommendations were determined by group consensus (January 1996); revisions as warranted by new data were incorporated by group consensus (February-May 1996). Conclusions.–Recent data on HIV pathogenesis, methods to determine plasma HIV RNA, clinical trial data, and availability of new drugs point to the need for new approaches to treatment. Therapy is recommended based on CD4+ cell count, plasma HIV RNA level, or clinical status. Preferred initial drug regiments include nucleoside combinations; at present protease inhibitors are probably best reserved for patients at higher progression risk. For treatment failure or drug intolerance, subsequent regimen considerations included reasons for changing therapy, available drug options, disease stage, underlying conditions, and concomitant medications(s). Therapy for primary (acute) infection, high-risk exposures to HIV, and maternal-to-fetal transmission re also addressed. Therapeutic approaches need to be updated as new data continue to emerge. Page 152: Dr. Fisch participated on an advisory board for Bristol-Myers Squibb. Dr. Hammer received honoraria from Bristol-Myers Squibb, Glaxo Wellcome, Hoffman-La Roche, and Merck; consulted for Bristol-Myers Squibb and Glaxo Wellcome; and received a laboratory grant from Bristol-Myers Squibb. Dr. Hirsch received research grants from Merck, Hoffman-La Roche, and Agouron and consulted for Glaxo Wellcome and Bristol-Myers Squibb. Dr. Katzenstein owned stock in Merck and received honoraria, research funding, and travel expenses from Bristol-Myers Squibb, Glaxo Wellcome, Merck, and Roche. Research funds to the Center for AIDS Research (Stanford, Calif) were provided by Bristol-Myers Squibb, Roche, Bayer, and Glaxo Wellcome. Dr. Montaner held grants from Glaxo Wellcome, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Boehringer Ingelheim, and Abbott Laboratories; he was an ad hoc consultant for the above mentioned as well as Chiron and Roche. Dr. Richman owned stock in Merck and Bristol-Myers Squibb, received research funding from Roche, Merck, Boehringer Ingelheim, and Glaxo Wellcome, and consulted for Bristol-Myers Squibb, Agouron, and Glaxo Wellcome. Dr. Saag consulted for Agouron, Abbott, and Glaxo Wellcome. Dr. Schooley consulted for Glaxo Wellcome, Roche, Merck, and Bristol-Myers Squibb and received grants from Glaxo Wellcome and Merck. Dr. Thompson had research funding from Glaxo Wellcome, Roche, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Abbott, Merck, and Chiron. Dr. Volberding consulted and was a speaker for Bristol-Myers Squibb and Glaxo Wellcome, consulted for Agouron and was a speaker for Roche. Dr. Vella participated in continuing medical education activities supported by Glaxo Wellcome, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Roche and participated in international advisory board meetings for Glaxo Wellcome and Bristol-Myers Squibb. Dr. Yeni was a consultant for Upjohn and Glaxo Wellcome.
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You must go to this site I found to secure your health care rights www.DrAnonymous.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I posted these revelations in late 1996/early 1997. Having wasted a decade on reverse-engineering unproven theories and false treatment claims, the same cast of pharmaceutical characters remains in control today, pretending to be shocked by their failures of the past wasted decade. At the conclusion of this post, I list the outrageous conflicts of interest of these "movers and shakers" of HIV "research". fred Latest guidelines for antiretroviral therapy by the International AIDS Society-USA published in the 7/10/96 issue of JAMA. Charles C.J. Carpenter and Donna M. Jacobson were the only authors that did not receive gratuities from pharmaceutical and/or biotechnical companies. Carpenter CCJ, Fischl MA, Hammer SM, Hirsch MS, Jacobsen DM, Katzenstein DA, Montaner JSF, Richman DD, Saag MS, Schooley RT, Thompson MA, Vella S, Yeni PG, Volberding PA; for the International AIDS Society-USA. Antiretroviral therapy for HIV infection in 1996: Recommendations of an international panel. JAMA, Jul 10, 276(2):146-154. Objective.–To provide clinical recommendations for antiretroviral therapy for human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) disease with currently (mid 1996) available drugs. When to start therapy, what to start with, when to change, and what to change to were addressed. Participants.–A 13-member panel representing international expertise in antiretroviral research and HIV patient care was selected by the International AIDS Society-USA. Evidence.–Available clinical and basic science date, including phase 3 controlled trials, clinical endpoint data, virologic and immunologic endpoint data, interim analyses, studies of HIV pathophysiology, and expert opinions of panel members were considered. Recommendations were limited to drugs available in mid 1996. Process.–For each question posed, 1 or more member(s) reviewed and presented available data. Recommendations were determined by group consensus (January 1996); revisions as warranted by new data were incorporated by group consensus (February-May 1996). Conclusions.–Recent data on HIV pathogenesis, methods to determine plasma HIV RNA, clinical trial data, and availability of new drugs point to the need for new approaches to treatment. Therapy is recommended based on CD4+ cell count, plasma HIV RNA level, or clinical status. Preferred initial drug regiments include nucleoside combinations; at present protease inhibitors are probably best reserved for patients at higher progression risk. For treatment failure or drug intolerance, subsequent regimen considerations included reasons for changing therapy, available drug options, disease stage, underlying conditions, and concomitant medications(s). Therapy for primary (acute) infection, high-risk exposures to HIV, and maternal-to-fetal transmission re also addressed. Therapeutic approaches need to be updated as new data continue to emerge. Page 152: Dr. Fisch participated on an advisory board for Bristol-Myers Squibb. Dr. Hammer received honoraria from Bristol-Myers Squibb, Glaxo Wellcome, Hoffman-La Roche, and Merck; consulted for Bristol-Myers Squibb and Glaxo Wellcome; and received a laboratory grant from Bristol-Myers Squibb. Dr. Hirsch received research grants from Merck, Hoffman-La Roche, and Agouron and consulted for Glaxo Wellcome and Bristol-Myers Squibb. Dr. Katzenstein owned stock in Merck and received honoraria, research funding, and travel expenses from Bristol-Myers Squibb, Glaxo Wellcome, Merck, and Roche. Research funds to the Center for AIDS Research (Stanford, Calif) were provided by Bristol-Myers Squibb, Roche, Bayer, and Glaxo Wellcome. Dr. Montaner held grants from Glaxo Wellcome, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Boehringer Ingelheim, and Abbott Laboratories; he was an ad hoc consultant for the above mentioned as well as Chiron and Roche. Dr. Richman owned stock in Merck and Bristol-Myers Squibb, received research funding from Roche, Merck, Boehringer Ingelheim, and Glaxo Wellcome, and consulted for Bristol-Myers Squibb, Agouron, and Glaxo Wellcome. Dr. Saag consulted for Agouron, Abbott, and Glaxo Wellcome. Dr. Schooley consulted for Glaxo Wellcome, Roche, Merck, and Bristol-Myers Squibb and received grants from Glaxo Wellcome and Merck. Dr. Thompson had research funding from Glaxo Wellcome, Roche, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Abbott, Merck, and Chiron. Dr. Volberding consulted and was a speaker for Bristol-Myers Squibb and Glaxo Wellcome, consulted for Agouron and was a speaker for Roche. Dr. Vella participated in continuing medical education activities supported by Glaxo Wellcome, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Roche and participated in international advisory board meetings for Glaxo Wellcome and Bristol-Myers Squibb. Dr. Yeni was a consultant for Upjohn and Glaxo Wellcome.
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And for your information, drugs DO NOT help the body heal itself. What happens when you stop taking the drug? The symptoms return! So has the body been healed? NO!
I realize that you think that symptoms always return after stopping the drug. Perhaps you have never seen someone treated for pneumococcal pneumonia treated with antibiotics without return of symptoms. Guess you have not seen someone with syphillis treated with penicillin without return of symptoms. Guess you have not seen someone with gonorrhea treated with penicillin without return of symptoms after drug stopped. Guess you don’t know shit from shinola. Still stuck in the 1920’s. Guess you won’t be going into the 21st century with the rest of us. Aloha, Rich Patrick V. Suglia Life University School of Chiropractic http://www.collegeclub.com/~suglia Please remove "-nospam" when responding by e-mail.
Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
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Regarding this and your previous message, it’s really terrible of you to fight chiropractors with facts. It’s kind of like going after kittens with shotguns. Or MD’s with malpractic lawyers. Steve
Nah, you’re welcome to come after M.D.s with lawyers. The biggest increase in malpractice suits right now is LEGAL malpractice, in which lawyers sue each other. He that liveth by the sword shall die by the sword. Eventually our society will figure out how much this costs us all, and do something about it, and the more lawsuits we have, the faster it will happen. So bring em on, say I. It will only hasten the judgement day. Steve Harris, M.D.
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Why do you try and assume that DC students aren’t as smart as MD students??? You’re just showing YOUR stupidity! I graduated with a B.A. in chemistry with a 3.86 average
I am surprised that you were accepted to chiropractic school. Sounds like you are overqualified:-) You and backcracker must be the ONLY straight A college graduates in chiropractic school. I am sorry.That is a bad assumption. I bet there are LOTS of straight A college students in chiropractic school. But if that is the case then there must be a lot of VERY low GPA’s since the aveage GPA for chiropractic school is NOT very high. , and I think I probably could’ve taken MCAT’s just fine!
I bet you could have taken them just fine too. How well you would do on them is another question indeed. There are two HUGE misconceptions here: 1) That chiropractic students wanted to be MD’s but couldn’t get into medical school
I imagine a good number of chiropractic students tried to get into medical school but were not successful. This is not a big surprise since only 1 out of 10 applicants is accepted to medical school. So you have 9 out of 10 who either go to a foreign medical school or go into some alternative health field if they want to remain in the health field. 2) That chiropractic colleges allow all applicants to matriculate despite academic performance.
Not ALL. But it is much easier to get into chiropractic college than it is to get into medical school. Or do you want to contest that assertion too? Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is the last time I will ask you this question, Aloha Rich (this is about the fifth or sixth time): what is your basis or criteria for determing that chiropractic is an archaic idea? Why won’t you answer this simple question? Apparently there IS no basis and this is simply a biased opinion! I HAVE answered it but you apparently have a problem with reading comprehension. This is the LAST time I will answer it for you. Chiropractics is based upon the theory that subluxations (minute dislocations of the spinal column) are the cause of disease due to disturbance in neural transmission to remote organs. The theory further goes on to say that through adjustments to correct these minute dislocations that a person is more likely to experience good health. There have been NO credible studies in peer reviewed journals that substantiate the theory OR substantiate that regular chiropractic adjustments are truly effective at reducing illness generally. To continue to believe in a theory many decades old, developed before our latest understanding of pathophysiology without evidence that it is true IS archaic. I know that you don’t need scientific studies to believe what you do. It works!!!! But does it really????? Lots of things really APPEAR to work but when put under closer scrutiny turn out not to. The mind often looks at things in a way to confirm preexisting apriori beliefs. tend to minimize the signifigance of pathogens and other pathophysiologic processes other than neurologic ones. I don’t. I also don’t minimize the ability of the body to heal itself. Neither does modern medicine. Ultimately it is the body that heals itself even when pharmaceuticals are administered. The drugs simply assist the body in healing itself. While it is certainly true that drugs are overprescribed and can cause real harm and death it is also the case that drugs can be life saving and improve a person’s health. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
Gee, Rich. You really didn’t do much research into your claim that there have been no studies made proving the connection between subluxations and visceral disease. Because I can be a nice guy when I want to be, I will point these studies out to you, even though you will wish to remain uneducated: 1. Henry Winsor, M.D. published his findings in the Novemeber, 1921 issue of the Medical Times that showed nerve impingement resulting in degeneration of the nerve impinged which resulted in the death of the organ that that nerve supplied. A SUBLUXATION! 2. At the present time, Dr. Suh, a physiologist, is conducting studies at the University of Colorado showing the pathophysiology of a subluxation and the visceral disorder caused by such an event. 3. If you even bothered to do any research on the net, you probably would have found this: http://lifenet.life.edu/newlife/crj/crj.html — the site for the Chiropractic Reseach Journal, a publication of the Sid E. Williams Chiropractic Research Center located in Marietta, GA. 4. Also, you would have found both the Journal of Manipulative Physiotherapeutics and the Chiropractic Journal (a publication of the World Chiropractic Alliance) are peer-reviewed journals of studies that have been done PROVING the existence and the ramifications of subluxations. And for your information, drugs DO NOT help the body heal itself. What happens when you stop taking the drug? The symptoms return! So has the body been healed? NO! Patrick V. Suglia Life University School of Chiropractic http://www.collegeclub.com/~suglia Please remove "-nospam" when responding by e-mail.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Donoghue) writes: (Emirikol7) writes: <<<Palmer college forChiropractic only requires two years of college before matriculation to their institution. Yes, but most states require a B.S./B.A. before you can practice in their state. This is for Aloha Rich, Justme, and all the others who state chiros pre-reqs are a joke: For a follow-up, This is the ADMISSIONS PAGE FROM UCSC MEDICAL SCHOOL’S admission pre-req’s:
My typing error…. Sorry, try UC San Diego Med. School…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"…The admissions committee has no preference for an undergraduate major field of study, but does prefer students with evidence of broad training an in-depth achievement in a particular area of knowledge, whether in humanities, social sciences,or natural sciences. It is recommended that students enter medical school after four years of undergraduate study; the absolute minimum is attendance for three academic years at an accredited college of arts and sciences, with at least one year at an accredited U.S. four-year institution. … A solid understanding of the fundamental sciences is essential for the study of medical sciences, and applicants are required to have successfully completed with a grade of C or better the equivalent of: one year of biology (excluding botany); one year of physics, 2 years of chemistry including organic chemistry; and one year of mathematics (only calculus, statistics, computer science or a combination of these three, will be considered towards completion of this requirement). The ability to express oneself clearly both in oral and written English is essential…." NO WHERE DOES IT STATE IT "REQUIRES" MCAT’S…. NOT ONE OF MY CHIRO CLASSMATES DID COULD HAVE NOT QUALIFIED FOR THIS MED. SCHOOL….. Don’t look know….. Your obvious bias and incorrect info is showing…
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: For a follow-up, This is the ADMISSIONS PAGE FROM UCSC MEDICAL SCHOOL’S admission pre-req’s: I am sorry I thought you had written USC.. I looked at your post again and it says UCSC. UCSC (Univ. Calif. Santa Cruz) does NOT HAVE a medical school. The only UCs that have med schools are UCI, UCLA, UCSD, UCR They ALL require MCAT and all have very very very very high GPA (i.e. 3.8) and all have avg MCAT of about 36 -40 45 being a perfect score. Regarding this and your previous message, it’s really terrible of you to fight chiropractors with facts. It’s kind of like going after kittens with shotguns.
Or MD’s with malpractic lawyers. Steve
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This is the last time I will ask you this question, Aloha Rich (this is about the fifth or sixth time): what is your basis or criteria for determing that chiropractic is an archaic idea? Why won’t you answer this simple question? Apparently there IS no basis and this is simply a biased opinion!
I HAVE answered it but you apparently have a problem with reading comprehension. This is the LAST time I will answer it for you. Chiropractics is based upon the theory that subluxations (minute dislocations of the spinal column) are the cause of disease due to disturbance in neural transmission to remote organs. The theory further goes on to say that through adjustments to correct these minute dislocations that a person is more likely to experience good health. There have been NO credible studies in peer reviewed journals that substantiate the theory OR substantiate that regular chiropractic adjustments are truly effective at reducing illness generally. To continue to believe in a theory many decades old, developed before our latest understanding of pathophysiology without evidence that it is true IS archaic. I know that you don’t need scientific studies to believe what you do. It works!!!! But does it really????? Lots of things really APPEAR to work but when put under closer scrutiny turn out not to. The mind often looks at things in a way to confirm preexisting apriori beliefs. tend to minimize the signifigance of pathogens and other pathophysiologic processes other than neurologic ones. I don’t. I also don’t minimize the ability of the body to heal itself.
Neither does modern medicine. Ultimately it is the body that heals itself even when pharmaceuticals are administered. The drugs simply assist the body in healing itself. While it is certainly true that drugs are overprescribed and can cause real harm and death it is also the case that drugs can be life saving and improve a person’s health. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :NO WHERE DOES IT STATE IT "REQUIRES" MCAT’S…. NOT ONE OF MY CHIRO :CLASSMATES DID COULD HAVE NOT QUALIFIED FOR THIS MED. SCHOOL….. Please…. USC does require MCAT (all MD and DO schools do) that is a given, just call and ask them or look at the AAMC (medical school guide) for more info. The only medical school that does not require MCAT is Johns Hopkins. But they (JH) have their own criteria. In 1997 the number of people applying fell from 1996, but there were still 43,020 applicants for only 16,165 spots. The average matriculant had an overall GPA of 3.56 (science gpas were very similar) and an MCAT total of 29.5. (Source: AAMC.) So Please dont tell me that your DC classmates could have gotten to USC .. The avg GPA/MCAT for USC in 1995 was University of Southern CaliforniaAverage MCAT: 10.0Average GPA: 3.5 That number has gone up since then for all medical schools.
Why do you try and assume that DC students aren’t as smart as MD students??? You’re just showing YOUR stupidity! I graduated with a B.A. in chemistry with a 3.86 average, and I think I probably could’ve taken MCAT’s just fine! There are two HUGE misconceptions here: 1) That chiropractic students wanted to be MD’s but couldn’t get into medical school (I’m sure those ones in the Bahamas and Caymans have REALLY stringetnt standards!). 2) That chiropractic colleges allow all applicants to matriculate despite academic performance. Both are VERY false. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Eight years?? Are you counting college here? Palmer college for Chiropractic only requires two years of college before matriculation to their institution. a. And yet well over 50% of my classmates have bachelors degrees. (Before matriculating in). (Including myself). And a signifigant portion of them DON’T have college degrees. But Chiropractic School is basically a trade school so I am not really
Trade school my ass. Just when I think you’re starting to show some intelligence, you go and spout off about thiings you OBVIOUSLY have no first hand (or qualified second hand) knowledge in! sure why they need to require a four year college degree. In any case economic decisions will predominate. They may not be able to fill their classes if they required a four year degree. If they could then
Sure they would. why are not well over 90% of the students college graduates??
Where did you get this figure??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chiropractors are physicians (according to how physician is defined by certain state laws). Oh great!! You can practice in one of those states and pretend you are a real physician. Must make you feel proud. No not a surprise. Another example of a chiropracter making false claims. Nope. Wrong again. Compare the requirements for graduation from Johns Hopkins medical school with Palmer College of Chiropractic. I have. I invite others to. Another example of an individual who is trying to claim that chiropracters are somehow superior to physicians in diagnosis and treatment and therefore can be used as primary health care providers.
Superior? No. Every bit as equal? Yes. Suitable as primary health providers? Certainly. There are plenty of MD’s out there that I wouldn’t trust as primary health care providers, as well as plenty of DC’s. Choose your doctor based on their doctoring, not the crap they have hanging on the office wall! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chiropractors are physicians. Only in SOME states according to YOUR OWN admission. You are a physician wannabe aren’t you?? Secondly, chiropractors are not superior, but equal to medical doctors in many areas. And are most certainly qualified as port of entry health care providers. For those who believe that chiropracters are as qualified as physician’s (yeah I know some states define chiropracters such that they can be called physicians which is VERY important to you) I would suggest that you get a hold of their curricula and see the nature of their training both academically and clinically. Chiropracters essentially learn a trade (spinal manipulation) based upon an archaic theory (subluxation) which explains all illness (in their mind). They
This is the last time I will ask you this question, Aloha Rich (this is about the fifth or sixth time): what is your basis or criteria for determing that chiropractic is an archaic idea? Why won’t you answer this simple question? Apparently there IS no basis and this is simply a biased opinion! tend to minimize the signifigance of pathogens and other pathophysiologic processes other than neurologic ones.
I don’t. I also don’t minimize the ability of the body to heal itself. But don’t believe me. Check it out yourself. In fact don’t believe anything you read in these newsgroups regardless of how convincing it sounds. Do your own research. You may be surprised at the results.
I’m sure they will be. BTW, sources such as Quackwatch aren’t going to provide you with a whole lot of real information. If you want to see what a chiropractic college has to offer, then write to them or call their admission department for information. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
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writes: oops.. forgot about UCSF. That school, well you have to walk on water to get in.
And then they abuse you. If you like to treat AIDS without sleep for years and not learn much else about medicine, it’s a great place. Otherwise, it sucks. So I hear tell.
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Troldahl) writes: Regarding this and your previous message, it’s really terrible of you to fight chiropractors with facts. It’s kind of like going after kittens with shotguns. Steve, just when I start to sort of like you, you go doing this kind of bullshit again. Why don’t you consider only saying something when you add information instead of gasoline to the fire?
But chiropractor-baiting is irrestable if they’ve been bad boys with the facts (the case here regarding admissions policies, which are a little more clearcut than cranial subluxations). And it’s hard enough in any case, since there are so many chiropractic schools, and they all disagree with each other… For the record, it’s not as though I think no chiropractor has anything to offer. I see skills– some the people don’t realize they have, or why, or how. I’ve sent people to chiropractors for muscular and sometimes even joint pain, and sometimes had them come back satisfied from some of the guys whom I eventually learned were good at whatever it is that they do. And I can’t argue with pain relief— I’m SURE it’s real <g. As real as anything can be. So I use the useful ones when I find them. I only ignore the theory, because there ISN’T a theory. That’s not my fault. If the chiropractors would get together in some kind of ecumenical conference and issue a platform of political and positional planks— like even *Republicans* can do whem threatened with loss of money— I’d have more respect for them. But OTOH, if even they (chiropractors) don’t know what the hell they believe, how am I supposed to respect their beliefs? It’s just a bunch of guys out there, pulling and pushing and yanking in different ways. (Sounds like the guys I went to high school with, actually.) When thinking of chiros and their 40 schools of thought (Badanes, is that right?) I’m reminded of the guy who had to explain that he was an atheist to some other kind of believer in Zoroastrianism or something. He went though, asking the Zoroastrian whether he believed in spider woman and the various Navaho Gods. Then whether or not he believed in Baal. Then Moloch. Then Zeus. Then Thor. Then Jesus. And so on. At the end he said: look, we’re not so different. You already don’t believe in 1000 gods. I just don’t believe in 1001. Steve Harris, M.D.
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:NO WHERE DOES IT STATE IT "REQUIRES" MCAT’S…. NOT ONE OF MY CHIRO :CLASSMATES DID COULD HAVE NOT QUALIFIED FOR THIS MED. SCHOOL….. Please…. USC does require MCAT (all MD and DO schools do) that is a given, just call and ask them or look at the AAMC (medical school guide) for more info. The only medical school that does not require MCAT is Johns Hopkins. But they (JH) have their own criteria. In 1997 the number of people applying fell from 1996, but there were still 43,020 applicants for only 16,165 spots. The average matriculant had an overall GPA of 3.56 (science gpas were very similar) and an MCAT total of 29.5. (Source: AAMC.) So Please dont tell me that your DC classmates could have gotten to USC .. The avg GPA/MCAT for USC in 1995 was University of Southern CaliforniaAverage MCAT: 10.0Average GPA: 3.5 That number has gone up since then for all medical schools.
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For a follow-up, This is the ADMISSIONS PAGE FROM UCSC MEDICAL SCHOOL’S admission pre-req’s:
I am sorry I thought you had written USC.. I looked at your post again and it says UCSC. UCSC (Univ. Calif. Santa Cruz) does NOT HAVE a medical school. The only UCs that have med schools are UCI, UCLA, UCSD, UCR They ALL require MCAT and all have very very very very high GPA (i.e. 3.8) and all have avg MCAT of about 36 -40 45 being a perfect score.
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oops.. forgot about UCSF. That school, well you have to walk on water to get in.
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writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For a follow-up, This is the ADMISSIONS PAGE FROM UCSC MEDICAL SCHOOL’S admission pre-req’s: I am sorry I thought you had written USC.. I looked at your post again and it says UCSC. UCSC (Univ. Calif. Santa Cruz) does NOT HAVE a medical school. The only UCs that have med schools are UCI, UCLA, UCSD, UCR They ALL require MCAT and all have very very very very high GPA (i.e. 3.8) and all have avg MCAT of about 36 -40 45 being a perfect score.
Regarding this and your previous message, it’s really terrible of you to fight chiropractors with facts. It’s kind of like going after kittens with shotguns.
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<<<Palmer college forChiropractic only requires two years of college before matriculation to their institution. Yes, but most states require a B.S./B.A. before you can practice in their state. There are also medical schools in the states that still allow you in with 60 credits of undergraduate work.
Name ONE. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
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" 2-5 years of residency. So a physician (including college) has minimum of 11 years education." This is not education. It is on-the-job experience, much like being in practice…
Just one slight difference. A resident during these 2-5 years of residency is DIRECTLY supervised by senior level physicians. If you think this even remotely resembles being in private practice then you are sorely mistaken. It is a time period when one learns the nuances of history taking, diagnosis and treatment. And if you don’t think that it is education then you are again sorely mistaken. Classroom education is only ONE kind of education. Clinical experience being closely monitored is ANOTHER kind of education. It is the combination of four years of classroom and 3-6 years of supervised intensive clinical experience which separates the training of an MD from that of a Chiropracter. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<<Palmer college forChiropractic only requires two years of college before matriculation to their institution. Yes, but most states require a B.S./B.A. before you can practice in their state. There are also medical schools in the states that still allow you in with 60 credits of undergraduate work. Again, what state is going to allow you to practice? Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk: http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-
If you REALLY want to see what is involved in the educating of a chiropractor, look at this site that spells out in detail the entire process and all requirement: http://members.wbs.net/homepages/d/a/n/danieldavidpalmer.html Patrick V. Suglia http://www.collegeclub.com/~suglia
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(Emirikol7) writes: <<<Palmer college forChiropractic only requires two years of college before matriculation to their institution. Yes, but most states require a B.S./B.A. before you can practice in their state.
This is for Aloha Rich, Justme, and all the others who state chiros pre-reqs are a joke: For a follow-up, This is the ADMISSIONS PAGE FROM UCSC MEDICAL SCHOOL’S admission pre-req’s: "…The admissions committee has no preference for an undergraduate major field of study, but does prefer students with evidence of broad training an in-depth achievement in a particular area of knowledge, whether in humanities, social sciences,or natural sciences. It is recommended that students enter medical school after four years of undergraduate study; the absolute minimum is attendance for three academic years at an accredited college of arts and sciences, with at least one year at an accredited U.S. four-year institution. … A solid understanding of the fundamental sciences is essential for the study of medical sciences, and applicants are required to have successfully completed with a grade of C or better the equivalent of: one year of biology (excluding botany); one year of physics, 2 years of chemistry including organic chemistry; and one year of mathematics (only calculus, statistics, computer science or a combination of these three, will be considered towards completion of this requirement). The ability to express oneself clearly both in oral and written English is essential…." NO WHERE DOES IT STATE IT "REQUIRES" MCAT’S…. NOT ONE OF MY CHIRO CLASSMATES DID COULD HAVE NOT QUALIFIED FOR THIS MED. SCHOOL….. Don’t look know….. Your obvious bias and incorrect info is showing…
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x-no-archive: yes Eight years?? Are you counting college here? Palmer college for Chiropractic only requires two years of college before matriculation to their institution. a. And yet well over 50% of my classmates have bachelors degrees. (Before matriculating in). (Including myself).
And a signifigant portion of them DON’T have college degrees. But Chiropractic School is basically a trade school so I am not really sure why they need to require a four year college degree. In any case economic decisions will predominate. They may not be able to fill their classes if they required a four year degree. If they could then why are not well over 90% of the students college graduates?? Chiropractors are physicians (according to how physician is defined by certain state laws).
Oh great!! You can practice in one of those states and pretend you are a real physician. Must make you feel proud. No not a surprise. Another example of a chiropracter making false claims. Nope. Wrong again. Compare the requirements for graduation from Johns Hopkins medical school with Palmer College of Chiropractic.
I have. I invite others to. Another example of an individual who is trying to claim that chiropracters are somehow superior to physicians in diagnosis and treatment and therefore can be used as primary health care providers. Chiropractors are physicians.
Only in SOME states according to YOUR OWN admission. You are a physician wannabe aren’t you?? Secondly, chiropractors are not superior, but equal to medical doctors in many areas. And are most certainly qualified as port of entry health care providers.
For those who believe that chiropracters are as qualified as physician’s (yeah I know some states define chiropracters such that they can be called physicians which is VERY important to you) I would suggest that you get a hold of their curricula and see the nature of their training both academically and clinically. Chiropracters essentially learn a trade (spinal manipulation) based upon an archaic theory (subluxation) which explains all illness (in their mind). They tend to minimize the signifigance of pathogens and other pathophysiologic processes other than neurologic ones. But don’t believe me. Check it out yourself. In fact don’t believe anything you read in these newsgroups regardless of how convincing it sounds. Do your own research. You may be surprised at the results. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
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You are wrong on both accounts. Chiropractors receive just as much education as an MD (8 years required in almost every state-except the backward ones).
Eight years?? Are you counting college here? Palmer college for Chiropractic only requires two years of college before matriculation to their institution. Is it the only one that does not require a four year degree?? Physicians have four years of college, fours years of medical school, a year internship, and anywhere from an addition 2-5 years of residency. So a physician (including college) has minimum of 11 years education. Consult your local chiro-college or state chiropractic regulating boards for details. IN FACT Chiropractors get MORE education in anatomy, nutrition, exercise, and DIAGNOSIS (surprising huh?).
No not a surprise. Another example of a chiropracter making false claims. Another example of an individual who is trying to claim that chiropracters are somehow superior to physicians in diagnosis and treatment and therefore can be used as primary health care providers. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
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<< Hmmmm. A five year equivalent program at Palmer. Plus a three year prerequisite foundation Most of the schools (excepting Life and Sherman) are moving to a 90 credit pre-req and by 2002 will have moved to a 4-year prior (rather than taking the extra classes simultaneously). The 3.5 accelleration is pretty intense. The MD’s get their summers off to go fishing off their yachts (?) and whatnot while we’re slaving away in the anatomy labs. Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk: http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-
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" 2-5 years of residency. So a physician (including college) has minimum of 11 years education." This is not education. It is on-the-job experience, much like being in practice… Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk: http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-
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<<<Palmer college forChiropractic only requires two years of college before matriculation to their institution. Yes, but most states require a B.S./B.A. before you can practice in their state. There are also medical schools in the states that still allow you in with 60 credits of undergraduate work. Again, what state is going to allow you to practice? Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk: http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-
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You are wrong on both accounts. Chiropractors receive just as much education as an MD (8 years required in almost every state-except the backward ones). Consult your local chiro-college or state chiropractic regulating boards for details. IN FACT Chiropractors get MORE education in anatomy, nutrition, exercise, and DIAGNOSIS (surprising huh?). Complications from manipulation occur more frequently because of an MD’s LACK OF TRAINING IN THE AREA OF ANATOMY AND BIOMECHANICS AND LACK OF ACTUAL SKILL IN MANIPULATION than those done by PROFESSIONALS (i.e. Chiropractors, Osteopaths, and Physical Therapists). For details, consult the actual numbers (DO A MEDLINE SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH). (Greyhawk Web Page:
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Question:
Sorry to go off topic, but what about those Jet Injectors??? My BG has been high and my family doctor wants me to go on insulin. I’m getting a second opinion at the end of this month, but I’m afraid that she is right. I don’t know if I can inject myself. I wouldn’t even be able to test my BG if it weren’t for the pen. The Jet sounds like the easiest injector, is that true? Any info would be great. Thanks in advance, — Cragmyre —
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Your Doctor might try glyburide to get your body to accept your insulin. If that doesn’t work, then your probably looking at insulin shots. I went through what you did and had to start taking Humalin NPH about two weeks ago. I’m still getting used to it. It’s not the giving yourself a shot that bothers you, it’s more the mental part of having a disease that requires this treatment. Oh well, good luck! Get that BG below 200 as soon as you can.
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I have had type II diabetes for 1.5 years. The first 12 months were terrific. Diet and exercise controlled it perfectly. This has changed recently and I was finally placed on Metformin 2000mg daily (I was also on Glimeperide 8mg but this was having no effect). This seemed to control things for some time. FBS was in the 130 – 160 range for three months. Now, my FBS’s are in the 200 – 250 range and trending upward (diet and exercise remain the same as during my "honeymoon" first 12 months). I seem to have adequate insulin based on blood level testing. What is the next step? My doctor is very conservative about this and prefers to "wait and see". I am somewhat compulsive and prefer to take any and all steps necessary to ensure that 15 years from now I do not see any pathophysiology related to what is happening now. Any and all opinions are welcome! — The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation
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Question:
Finally! I have an obsessive fan! Doug
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Doesn’t CAUTION: SHEER SPECULATION belong at the top of every Doug Ruth post? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:49:08 GMT, dr…@inovion.com (Doug Ruth) wrote: >From what I have read, it is urged that alcohol not be consumed within >three hours of sleep. I still am suspicious that the drug impacts >adversely upon sleep no matter when ingested. But this is sheer >speculation. >Good luck! >Doug
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In article <34cba2db.326…@news.inovion.com>, dr…@inovion.com (Doug Ruth) >wrote: >]Alcohol likely has a cumulative impact upon sleep health–one not >]easily or readily discernable, but instead subtle and stealthy. >]Therefore, even if one quits drinking entirely forever, sleep health >]cannot "materialize" or be restored to a pre-alcohol status, though it >]can become suspended from further adverse effects of this drug. >I don’t see why it would have a cummulative effect on the pathophysiology. >It’s not as if alcohol has the same effect on the body as does radiation. I >can see how alcohol consumption can have long term effects on the liver, but >I don’t know why this would permanently damage oropharyngeal tissue or cause it >to be redundant when consumption is terminated. >It is advised that alcohol consumption be discontinued a few hours before >sleep because — I assume — the negative effect of alcohol is no longer >present after a few hours. At least not present in any fashion that would >reduce muscle tone of pharyngeal muscles.
************************** Don’t know if I can answer to your observations. Firstly, question 1 may be: why three hours when alcohol can be metabolized in one hour (one drink)? Also, the same apnea mechanisms which *may* lead to pulmonary disease or respiratory fatigue, may become exacerbated simply due to alcohol-caused exacerbation of apnea. That even if alcohol creates a temporary tissue "redundancy", it yet causes the apnea to progress, mechanically and not pharmacologically speaking. Also, I remember specifically reading a study that blew me away at the time, but which I could likely never find again (Medline), which stated that it was sleep fragmentation, and not hypoxia, that facilitated upper-airway collapse. That if someone was to awaken their mate 200 times every night for five years, their mate’s airway would collapse. And since we know that alcohol fragments sleep, then . . .? And finally, what I wonder about is the neural strength of respiration in alcohol use: whether it is only proportional to acute use of alcohol, or whether it becomes changed. The quickest way to find this out is for Ed and Bill to ask all their patients who are in respiratory fatigue their historical alcohol use (fatigue can be differentiated from COPD, no?), or an equivalent study. But the best testament is my brother. Now about 37, his wife told me half a decade ago that he never snored unless he had been drinking. Still drinks, heavily, always has, and now snores without drinking. His neck has now become distended, and though he is not necessarily "fat", he is starting to yawn inordinately. I fear what might present to me in another ten years. But he is still one alright dude Doug
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It was in fact on or about Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:03:30 -0800 when "Donald L. Edwards" <do…@pcpros.net> in actuality wrote: >I’m kind of new to the CPAP, about a month now and still have felt no >relief, as to alchole my normal consumption is usual two to four martini >before dinner. This is not a new habit, as I am approaching 70 years. >With the CPAP, I still am looking for a good nights sleep. With a >couple of drinks and without that damn machine I can sleep fine, get up >at 7 am, spend time in my woodshop, take my boat or canoe, go fishing or >do what ever I please. I might add that I also walk on an artificial >hip. When I talk to my doctor(s) the response is always the same – lose >10 to 15 pounds, quite drinking, go to bed at 9:30 pm instead of >screwing around on the internet until the wee hours of the morning, eat >regular scheduled meals (no more delicious steaks and wine at 8:30 pm). >My doctor is in his 40’s – I believe if you check you will find that >there are more old drunks that old doctors. >Don
Hi Don, your descriptions made me chuckle somewhat (by the way, the CPAP doubles as a sawdust blower-awayer for the woodshop <g>. Personally, I don’t know if one could say that anyone "abuses" alcohol at two to four martinis per night. I’m equally not sure if it actually *helps* sleep (though it sure knocks a person out, giving the impression of deep sleep though!). It fragments sleep architecture, so they say. Depresses respiration (so depressing!). I suppose without actually abstaining for a few days while using the CPAP, may be a mystery. But we don’t know how alcohol affects the progression, anyway. And if the nose is clogged or the passages narrowed , then the CPAP kind of turns into an apnea trap that might make things worse. I would have to say that discerning the whole alcohol/apnea phenomenon is complicated by the body’s own adaptation over time. Before long, one may find him or herself in a room without having noticed that the lights had been dimmed. It was imperceptibly slow, and one couldn’t really notice the gradation until it became difficult to read (this is a true psychological thing incidentally–being able to discern changes only in chunks, such as ranges of dimming light). Regarding the doctor: he could take a lesson and get on the internet himself, so we don’t have to do end-runs around them for accurate information Happy sleep, Doug
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In article <34cba2db.326…@news.inovion.com>, dr…@inovion.com (Doug Ruth) wrote:
]Alcohol likely has a cumulative impact upon sleep health–one not ]easily or readily discernable, but instead subtle and stealthy. ]Therefore, even if one quits drinking entirely forever, sleep health ]cannot "materialize" or be restored to a pre-alcohol status, though it ]can become suspended from further adverse effects of this drug. I don’t see why it would have a cummulative effect on the pathophysiology. It’s not as if alcohol has the same effect on the body as does radiation. I can see how alcohol consumption can have long term effects on the liver, but I don’t know why this would permanently damage oropharyngeal tissue or cause it to be redundant when consumption is terminated. It is advised that alcohol consumption be discontinued a few hours before sleep because — I assume — the negative effect of alcohol is no longer present after a few hours. At least not present in any fashion that would reduce muscle tone of pharyngeal muscles.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jim Strand wrote: > On 25 Jan 1998 03:39:02 GMT, "Jim Hudspath" <jhuds…@nycap.rr.com> > made the following comments: > >You worry about work, the kids, the finances. then you can’t sleep, then > >you worry about sleeping. The cycle seams to be difficult to stop. How much > >of an affect is alcohol, I love my beer. > > ^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^ > You’re not alone. I’ve been on CPAP about nine months now. Several > times I either eased up or quit the beer for several weeks. Honestly > haven’t noticed any difference. In fact even with several weeks gone > by since having a single beer I still awake some mornings feeling very > similar to having a slight hang over. Go figure. > What I did notice is that over the past year I put on a few extra > pounds. Not excessive perhaps, 15lbs, but on my tall lean frame > enough. Goal presently is to lose those 15 and see how I feel then. > ******************************************** > Anti-spam measures in action. > For e-mail response delete "nospam" > ********************************************
I’m kind of new to the CPAP, about a month now and still have felt no relief, as to alchole my normal consumption is usual two to four martini before dinner. This is not a new habit, as I am approaching 70 years. With the CPAP, I still am looking for a good nights sleep. With a couple of drinks and without that damn machine I can sleep fine, get up at 7 am, spend time in my woodshop, take my boat or canoe, go fishing or do what ever I please. I might add that I also walk on an artificial hip. When I talk to my doctor(s) the response is always the same – lose 10 to 15 pounds, quite drinking, go to bed at 9:30 pm instead of screwing around on the internet until the wee hours of the morning, eat regular scheduled meals (no more delicious steaks and wine at 8:30 pm). My doctor is in his 40’s – I believe if you check you will find that there are more old drunks that old doctors. Don
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You worry about work, the kids, the finances. then you can’t sleep, then you worry about sleeping. The cycle seams to be difficult to stop. How much of an affect is alcohol, I love my beer.
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On 25 Jan 1998 03:39:02 GMT, "Jim Hudspath" <jhuds…@nycap.rr.com> made the following comments: >You worry about work, the kids, the finances. then you can’t sleep, then >you worry about sleeping. The cycle seams to be difficult to stop. How much >of an affect is alcohol, I love my beer. > ^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^
You’re not alone. I’ve been on CPAP about nine months now. Several times I either eased up or quit the beer for several weeks. Honestly haven’t noticed any difference. In fact even with several weeks gone by since having a single beer I still awake some mornings feeling very similar to having a slight hang over. Go figure. What I did notice is that over the past year I put on a few extra pounds. Not excessive perhaps, 15lbs, but on my tall lean frame enough. Goal presently is to lose those 15 and see how I feel then. ******************************************** Anti-spam measures in action. For e-mail response delete "nospam" ********************************************
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It was in fact on or about Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:58:54 GMT when chief…@unix.nospam.asb.com (Jim Strand) in actuality wrote: snip >You’re not alone. I’ve been on CPAP about nine months now. Several >times I either eased up or quit the beer for several weeks. Honestly >haven’t noticed any difference. In fact even with several weeks gone >by since having a single beer I still awake some mornings feeling very >similar to having a slight hang over. Go figure.
snip Alcohol likely has a cumulative impact upon sleep health–one not easily or readily discernable, but instead subtle and stealthy. Therefore, even if one quits drinking entirely forever, sleep health cannot "materialize" or be restored to a pre-alcohol status, though it can become suspended from further adverse effects of this drug. Therefore, if an apneic must drink (of who many are predisposed from apnea to drink), moderation is vital, IMHO. From what I have read, it is urged that alcohol not be consumed within three hours of sleep. I still am suspicious that the drug impacts adversely upon sleep no matter when ingested. But this is sheer speculation. Good luck! Doug
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Question:
Chilblain is a form of subclinical frostbite and is characterized by a recurrent localized itching, swelling and painful erythema in the extremities AKA pernio and erythema pernio. This peripheral vascular disease is due to a diminished blood supply for various reasons.
Thanks for the explanation of the pathophysiology of this condition. This condition is usually caused by a feeling of betrayal and sabotage by those whom (s)he trusted, felt close or were in a position of influence over their financial welfare. It comes from not knowing what or who’s next on the betrayal and sabotage list.
Huh? Did you mix two different posts? This sounds like Louise Hay, the way she describes the emotional problem that causes each physical one. Assuming you’ve identified an emotional cause for the physical illness, what is the reason why you think this particular emotional syndrome is the cause of this illness? Or did you just read about it somewhere? It is a chronic and sometimes violent contraction of the sap of life. It can be physcially opened by IV doses of niacin to "flush out" the memory of betrayal and sabotage.
How does niacin help this illness? Perhaps this thread can be a springboard for discussions regarding the emotional roots of various illnesses. I don’t doubt that most illnesses have psychological causes.
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Chilblain is a form of subclinical frostbite and is characterized by a recurrent localized itching, swelling and painful erythema in the extremities AKA pernio and erythema pernio. This peripheral vascular disease is due to a diminished blood supply for various reasons. This condition is usually caused by a feeling of betrayal and sabotage by those whom (s)he trusted, felt close or were in a position of influence over their financial welfare. It comes from not knowing what or who’s next on the betrayal and sabotage list. It is a chronic and sometimes violent contraction of the sap of life.
ROFL.
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Chilblain is a form of subclinical frostbite and is characterized by a recurrent localized itching, swelling and painful erythema in the extremities AKA pernio and erythema pernio. This peripheral vascular disease is due to a diminished blood supply for various reasons. This condition is usually caused by a feeling of betrayal and sabotage by those whom (s)he trusted, felt close or were in a position of influence over their financial welfare. It comes from not knowing what or who’s next on the betrayal and sabotage list. It is a chronic and sometimes violent contraction of the sap of life. It can be physcially opened by IV doses of niacin to "flush out" the memory of betrayal and sabotage. I realize this may be a little too much for some of you scientists – but "bear" with me. It’ll grow on you. Sincerely Dr. AVB I suffer with chilblaines. Does anyone have any ideas how I can reduce the pain and swelling? I would be most grateful for any help. Please reply directly rather than to the newsgroup. My address is Please say where you saw the message. Regards, Ian Southall — Ian Southall
– A. Van Beveren, Ph.D., CNC 609-924-7337 |Au-d.l.r.u? Nutritional Biochemist and Physiologist |
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