inflammation and surgery
Question:
Ray Killeen wrote: > Steven Litvintchouk <sdlit…@earthlink.net> wrote in message <news:3CE8810C.C2CDDCF3@earthlink.net>… > Secondly, what dosage and time frame was prescribed on the Diflucan > and when did you start?
I haven’t started yet. I’ll let you know after my pulmonologist fills the prescription. > Maybe consider "the" diet why you’re taking > the Diflucan?
There is no evidence that you can cure any sort of infection, let alone a fungal infection, with diet. Even Dr. Ivker, who literally wrote the book on holistic treatment of sinusitis ("Sinus Survival"), has stated that to kill the overgrowth of candida, a prescription antifungal medication is the way to go. He believes that *after* the infection is eradicated, dietary changes may prevent a recurrence. > You’re liver? I was concerned about the rare case of liver damage but > it seems most people that have this problem found it reversible. I > took Milk thistle since there seems to be some merit to its liver > enhancing properties. More then one doctor recommended it to me. Then > again I’m a paranoid kind of guy.
So is my pulmonologist. That is why she had me take a liver function test prior to starting, and after I start, she wants me to repeat the test every two weeks for a month or so. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlit…@earthlink.net
Response:
"Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:3jaheucvtu2lu2vq195e8ah4vfgou309a3@4ax.com… > On Mon, 20 May 2002 04:52:59 GMT, Steven Litvintchouk
<sdlit…@earthlink.net> > wrote: > >My home is full of mold (that’s from the humidifier and vaporizer I > >used). > Time to sell it and move.
Or clean up the mold!
Response:
"Steven Litvintchouk" <sdlit…@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CE8810C.C2CDDCF3@earthlink.net… > Are you aware of the recent research by the Mayo Clinic and others, > which is beginning to suggest that chronic sinusitis may be due to > hitherto unsuspected *fungal* infections? They just started clinical > trials on volunteer sinus sufferers, to see if antifungal medications > might help their sinus problems.
I thought though, that the research didn’t actually involve fungal infections, but that many of us have immune systems that overreact to fungi, and that that overreaction creates the nasal/sinus problems. Probably everyone has some fungi in the nose, but the systems of some over-react to it. Therefore, I would think it would be better if they tried to find a way to curb the over-reaction, as they attempt to do with allergy desensitization, rather than just killing fungi. I would wonder about long term negative consequences of using anti-fungal medicine for the rest of one’s life. Also, when on irrigates with the stuff, I understand one cannot use salt in the water, and irrigation without salt can be very irritating, and lead to increased edema.
Response:
That is correct, the growth from the patients is the same as the growth from the general population. It is the over reaction with eosinophiles that produces the toxic products that couse symptoms. Possibly pulsatlle irrigation to remove the materials can help. Unfortunately the drugs can’t be added to the water pik solution in saline and are uncomfortable. Various trials are being done with irrigation followed by the drugs in sprays. No data yet on results. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm
Response:
MS wrote: > "Steven Litvintchouk" <sdlit…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:3CE8810C.C2CDDCF3@earthlink.net… > > Are you aware of the recent research by the Mayo Clinic and others, > > which is beginning to suggest that chronic sinusitis may be due to > > hitherto unsuspected *fungal* infections? They just started clinical > > trials on volunteer sinus sufferers, to see if antifungal medications > > might help their sinus problems. > I thought though, that the research didn’t actually involve fungal > infections, but that many of us have immune systems that overreact to fungi, > and that that overreaction creates the nasal/sinus problems. Probably > everyone has some fungi in the nose, but the systems of some over-react to > it.
Yes, this immune system reaction appears to be unique. It involves eosinophil cells, but is not the usual allergic response. > Therefore, I would think it would be better if they tried to find a way to > curb the over-reaction, as they attempt to do with allergy desensitization, > rather than just killing fungi. I would wonder about long term negative > consequences of using anti-fungal medicine for the rest of one’s life. Also, > when on irrigates with the stuff, I understand one cannot use salt in the > water, and irrigation without salt can be very irritating, and lead to > increased edema.
You are basically correct on all counts. Unfortunately, killing the overgrowth of fungi is the only technique that science knows how to do at the current time. Finding a way to intercept the over-reaction is going to require lots more research. They will have to understand in detail just what the mechanisms are. (It has taken decades of research to understand what the mechanisms of allergic reactions are.) I’m sure that research is underway, but not likely to produce any short-term breakthroughs. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlit…@earthlink.net
Response:
In article <20020521130657.10076.00000…@mb-ch.aol.com>, entcons…@aol.com (ENTconsult) wrote: > That is correct, the growth from the patients is the same as the growth from > the general population. It is the over reaction with eosinophiles that > produces > the toxic products that couse symptoms. Possibly pulsatlle irrigation to > remove > the materials can help.
Why do you feel that irrigation may help. The eosinophils to which you refer, and their noxious products, are within the tissue rather than on its surface or in its exudate. Is it that you feel irrigation will help *anything*? Larry
Response:
Will not irrigation help to wash out fungi and other substances against which the "over-reaction" may be taking place. "Larry Preuss" <LPre…@provide.net> wrote in message
news:210520021317081760%LPreuss@provide.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <20020521130657.10076.00000…@mb-ch.aol.com>, > entcons…@aol.com (ENTconsult) wrote: > > That is correct, the growth from the patients is the same as the growth from > > the general population. It is the over reaction with eosinophiles that > > produces > > the toxic products that couse symptoms. Possibly pulsatlle irrigation to > > remove > > the materials can help. > Why do you feel that irrigation may help. The eosinophils to which you > refer, and their noxious products, are within the tissue rather than on > its surface or in its exudate. Is it that you feel irrigation will help > *anything*? > Larry
Response:
I may well have misunderstood Dr. Grossan, but he has spoken before of washing eosinophil-produced toxins out of the nose. I thought he might have been repeating the sense of what he said on 2/28/01: "Not exactly. it seems that in some unresponsive chronic sinusitis there is an aberrant reaction to the fungus that may prolong the disease. The eosinophiles that are to protect the body produce toxins that harm the body. This is one of the good effects of pulsatile irrigation, much of those toxins are removed before they can build up." In article <ace0fu$id…@knossos.btinternet.com>, "Tony Knight" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<kni…@btinternet.com> wrote: > Will not irrigation help to wash out fungi and other substances against > which the "over-reaction" may be taking place. > "Larry Preuss" <LPre…@provide.net> wrote in message > news:210520021317081760%LPreuss@provide.net… > > In article <20020521130657.10076.00000…@mb-ch.aol.com>, > > entcons…@aol.com (ENTconsult) wrote: > > > That is correct, the growth from the patients is the same as the growth > from > > > the general population. It is the over reaction with eosinophiles that > > > produces > > > the toxic products that couse symptoms. Possibly pulsatlle irrigation to > > > remove > > > the materials can help. > > Why do you feel that irrigation may help. The eosinophils to which you > > refer, and their noxious products, are within the tissue rather than on > > its surface or in its exudate. Is it that you feel irrigation will help > > *anything*? > > Larry
Response:
MS wrote: > "Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com> wrote in message > news:3jaheucvtu2lu2vq195e8ah4vfgou309a3@4ax.com… > > On Mon, 20 May 2002 04:52:59 GMT, Steven Litvintchouk > <sdlit…@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > > >My home is full of mold (that’s from the humidifier and vaporizer I > > >used). > > Time to sell it and move. > Or clean up the mold!
I’ve been trying to do that with Clorox. However, the Clorox fumes are so overpowering that I need to keep the windows wide open to ventilate fresh air. And up till now, that’s been impossible here in the Boston suburbs. The temperature has been way below normal. Did you hear that it actually *snowed* last Sunday? That’s right, we got snow and freezing temperatures on May 19–we set a couple records. This Memorial Day weekend looks to be warmer. It’s time to do a general cleaning of all that mold. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlit…@earthlink.net
Response:
Clinical experience shows a reduction of symptoms in the true fungus patients – the immunocomprimised ones. The benefit comes from improving cilia movement and thereby mucociliary clearance. Also there is a dilution factor. Be patient, the articles are coming. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm
Response:
Larry, by this time you must have some patients who use pulsatile irrigation. What is your opinion of the results of the patients you directly observe who have used irrigation for post nasal drip, chronic sinusitis, etc? Has it helped any of your asthmatics? Were you forced to get them all to stop because of negative results? If the results of any of your patients using pulsatile irrigation are 100% bad, it would be helpful to the readers to know. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm
Response:
In article <3CE8810C.C2CDD…@earthlink.net>, Steven Litvintchouk <sdlit…@earthlink.net> wrote: > I pleaded with her to consider a trial of Diflucan, and she > finally agreed to it.
How long have you been on it and at what dose? Any positive results? ph
Response:
Steven Litvintchouk <sdlit…@earthlink.net> wrote in message <news:3CE8810C.C2CDDCF3@earthlink.net>… > Originally, my pulmonologist didn’t think much of it, but after the > second sputum culture came back positive for fungus too, she’s beginning > to wonder. I pleaded with her to consider a trial of Diflucan, and she > finally agreed to it.
First, thanks for the heads up on the Glyconutrients. Secondly, what dosage and time frame was prescribed on the Diflucan and when did you start? Maybe consider "the" diet why you’re taking the Diflucan? > What have I got to lose?
You’re liver? I was concerned about the rare case of liver damage but it seems most people that have this problem found it reversible. I took Milk thistle since there seems to be some merit to its liver enhancing properties. More then one doctor recommended it to me. Then again I’m a paranoid kind of guy. Keep your fingers crossed, I hope things work out for you.
Response:
pharde…@SPAMdrizzle.com wrote: > In article <3CE8810C.C2CDD…@earthlink.net>, > Steven Litvintchouk <sdlit…@earthlink.net> wrote: > > I pleaded with her to consider a trial of Diflucan, and she > > finally agreed to it. > How long have you been on it and at what dose? Any positive results?
I haven’t started yet, because my pulmonologist wanted to get a liver function test from me as a baseline. I just did that late last week. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlit…@earthlink.net
Response:
Noah Meanin wrote: > Has anyone else felt like their doc is not thinking ‘outside the box’?
Yes. Doctors try to follow established, proven protocols, rather than experiment on their patients like lab rats. If a doctor knowingly deviates from "best established practice" to try something totally unique and arcane and unproven, and the patient ends up getting sicker, the patient could sue the doctor for malpractice. > I guess my point it that the surgery does not seem to have resolved the > inflammatory problems. I have even heard someone suggest on this board that > they seemed to have worse allergies because their sinus cavities were now > more exposed.
There are a few important questions I need to ask you: Can you recall how and when your symptoms first started? Was the onset sudden, or gradual? Did it seem to be triggered by some acute illness, or what? Can you recall any major changes to your life (or lifestyle) that occurred around that same time? Can you recall any other illnesses (even non-infectious ones) that occurred around that same time? Bear with me; I have a reason for asking these questions. > I have a feeling there is some kind of virus out there nailing people, and > causing mucosal and sinus swelling.
You’re implying that your symptoms started suddenly, after you caught some kind of acute respiratory infection? Is this true? Are you aware of the recent research by the Mayo Clinic and others, which is beginning to suggest that chronic sinusitis may be due to hitherto unsuspected *fungal* infections? They just started clinical trials on volunteer sinus sufferers, to see if antifungal medications might help their sinus problems. My home is full of mold (that’s from the humidifier and vaporizer I used). I am beginning to wonder if the mold spores have actually infected my respiratory tract. I had two sputum cultures, taken several months apart, both of which tested positive for Candida overgrowth. (And that was with the older culture technologies; who knows what else Mayo might have found?) The sputum is almost certainly contaminated with postnasal drip from my sinuses. So the Candida may well be up in there. Originally, my pulmonologist didn’t think much of it, but after the second sputum culture came back positive for fungus too, she’s beginning to wonder. I pleaded with her to consider a trial of Diflucan, and she finally agreed to it. What have I got to lose? — Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlit…@earthlink.net
Response:
Has anyone else felt like their doc is not thinking ‘outside the box’? If you talk about sinus pressure, they talk about infection and antibiotics. If no infection, then allergy. If no allergy then ‘non-allergic rhinitis’ and then you get nasal sprays, end of story. Surgery does not correct the inflammatory response. I did not have sinus ‘infection’ that much. No post nasal drip, mucous, etc. Just blockage due to swelling, swollen lymph nodes, sinus headaches all the time. During office visits, I sometimes felt like I was being put in the wrong diagnostic box. Surgery was proposed and performed to opening up airways to allow for ‘drainage’ when there didn’t seem to be much to drain. For years I had the same anatomy with some congestion, but the inflammatory stuff started of its own accord. Fixing the inflammation (if possible) seems like it would have been the better choice over surgery. 11 months post-FESS and I still have inflammation, tons of headaches and aches over the frontal and maxillary. Yes it is easier to inhale air. But the mucosa/turbinates do not feel as sensitive to the air. For quite a while after the surgery, I could smell nothing (although it has come back somewhat). Also, for about a month? after the surgery I had the very disturbing feeling of cold dry air hitting nerves in my nose/head. It felt like nothing was ‘blocking’ the air. The turbinates play the role of warming and humidifying air. If you read up the articles you will find of the much-debated "empty nose" syndrome. Supposedly older pre-FESS techniques were more damaging to the turbinates, or ENT’s removed to much turbinate tissue. I guess my point it that the surgery does not seem to have resolved the inflammatory problems. I have even heard someone suggest on this board that they seemed to have worse allergies because their sinus cavities were now more exposed. I tested negative to common allergies. So I’m at a loss of what to do. Antihistamines do nothing. Nasacort and Astelin do very little if anything. I have a tube of Ayr saline gell with me at all times (to deal with the feeling of dryness and non-humidifying breathing). To those of you who post about having bouts of sinus infection several times a year, consider yourselves very lucky. I deal with this every day, all day (for the past 2 years or so). With the swollen lymph nodes, I feel like I have mono (but I don’t). The other day I asked a question at my doc’s office about cystic fibrosis, and the physician assistant just laughed and told me about allergy season. I have a feeling there is some kind of virus out there nailing people, and causing mucosal and sinus swelling. Everyone is getting mis-diagnosed and is being put on Allegra and Claritin. There was a very interesting article in the New York Times Magazine several months ago about the pharmaceutical industry and the pushing of Allegra and Claritin. Sincere thanks to everyone who posts helpful information on this board. NM
Response:
Filed under: Acute sinusitis
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